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Viejita Pair - Have I bought two females?

TomShaw

New Member
Messages
3
Location
West Midlands, UK
Hey all ,

Completely new to the world of Apistogramma - I've done a lot research, scaped and matured a suitable tank, leading up to yesterday when I purchased two Veijita that my local store had set aside for me as a pair.

Now that they're in the tank and settling... I'm wondering if they are in fact two females. They're a similar size, one slightly large than the other. One has a slight 'sparkle' around its eye that the other does not, but apart from that I'm unable to see any other differences. They're not the best photos, but would somebody be able to confirm for me?

IMG_1731.jpg

IMG_1736.jpg

IMG_1744.jpg


If it is the case that they are two females, it leads to the quandary of whether my tank is large enough to have both females and add a male, or whether I need to remove one
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
They indeed look a lot like two females.

Also these ae Apistogramma macmasteri, not A. viejita. They are often sold as viejita in the trade, which is a shame as the retailers often charge more than A. macmasteri usually are sold for.
If it is the case that they are two females, it leads to the quandary of whether my tank is large enough to have both females and add a male, or whether I need to remove one
That depends. How big is your tank? (Footprint length x width)
 

TomShaw

New Member
Messages
3
Location
West Midlands, UK
They indeed look a lot like two females.

Also these ae Apistogramma macmasteri, not A. viejita. They are often sold as viejita in the trade, which is a shame as the retailers often charge more than A. macmasteri usually are sold for.

That depends. How big is your tank? (Footprint length x width)

Thanks Mac, I thought that would be the case.

Good to know regarding the species identification, I chose them as they were exceptionally golden coloured in the store - From some research I now know that was likely because they're both female and were 'in the mood'...

The tank is 112L, 80cm wide, 45cm deep and 40cm tall. It's quite densely planted which could help in breaking up sight lines, but I don't want to push it. Below is a picture of the tank. It's important to note there's 12 Ember Tetra and 3 Ottos in there also (used to be 6, 3 sadly didn't make it).

1E6A0021.jpg
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Thanks Mac, I thought that would be the case.

Good to know regarding the species identification, I chose them as they were exceptionally golden coloured in the store - From some research I now know that was likely because they're both female and were 'in the mood'...

The tank is 112L, 80cm wide, 45cm deep and 40cm tall. It's quite densely planted which could help in breaking up sight lines, but I don't want to push it. Below is a picture of the tank. It's important to note there's 12 Ember Tetra and 3 Ottos in there also (used to be 6, 3 sadly didn't make it).

View attachment 10540

Nice tank size, also nice looking. Only thing I find a bit critical: The "street" in the middle. See, when Apistos are not breeding, it's best to have a well structured tank, meaning the lines of sight should be broken. I don't know how the tank looks from the back, but I can tell right now you have a lot of unbroken lines. That means a male would likely see the whole tank as it's territory, patroulling all of it. If it sees a female ready to spawn all is relatively fine, but if the female is not ready it will be chased relentlessly. Without the broken angles she will not be able to hide safely, rather the male will investigate whenever she moves around the corner.
It has become one of my observations, that aquascapes and Apistogramma (well, dwarf cichlids in general) don't really go together.

So... with that said, to keep both females you will have to completely restructure the tank. For a pair you would have to at least lose the gap in the middle. Important is, that the lines have to be broken in the lower 20cm up from the ground.
And even then, a second tank to move one of the fish to at any time is a good invertment.

If you want to keep the tank as is, I would only stock one single male Apisto and be done.

The other fish are fine, with the Embers no Apistogramma spawn will survive, though. And Otos are notoriously hard to acclimate and often in fatally bad shape upon purchase. I've seen a lot of cases with 50-100% losses within the first 3 months, I myself gave up on them after the second attempt with complete loss of the batch.
 

TomShaw

New Member
Messages
3
Location
West Midlands, UK
Nice tank size, also nice looking. Only thing I find a bit critical: The "street" in the middle. See, when Apistos are not breeding, it's best to have a well structured tank, meaning the lines of sight should be broken. I don't know how the tank looks from the back, but I can tell right now you have a lot of unbroken lines. That means a male would likely see the whole tank as it's territory, patroulling all of it. If it sees a female ready to spawn all is relatively fine, but if the female is not ready it will be chased relentlessly. Without the broken angles she will not be able to hide safely, rather the male will investigate whenever she moves around the corner.
It has become one of my observations, that aquascapes and Apistogramma (well, dwarf cichlids in general) don't really go together.

So... with that said, to keep both females you will have to completely restructure the tank. For a pair you would have to at least lose the gap in the middle. Important is, that the lines have to be broken in the lower 20cm up from the ground.
And even then, a second tank to move one of the fish to at any time is a good invertment.

If you want to keep the tank as is, I would only stock one single male Apisto and be done.

The other fish are fine, with the Embers no Apistogramma spawn will survive, though. And Otos are notoriously hard to acclimate and often in fatally bad shape upon purchase. I've seen a lot of cases with 50-100% losses within the first 3 months, I myself gave up on them after the second attempt with complete loss of the batch.

The tank was very much designed as an Aquascape, with the Apistos being an afterthought having lived with the aquarium for a couple of months and the Embers being a little....... (sorry Embers!)....boring. So, I completely understand and agree with all of your comments.

Whilst I'd have no issue altering the tank to better suit them, I fear I would need to start completely from scratch to do a good job. I could put an 'island' in that central area to help break up the sight lines, but that seems like it may not be enough - so by the sounds of it, having three in there is a no no!

I'll mull over whether to alter the centre of the tank and have a pair, or take both females back and have just the one male. Or, a third option, would just the two females work...? Are they aggressive towards one another? I find them equally as stunning as the males.

Regarding the Otos, absolutely - I never see the three remaining ones any more and whilst I know adding more to form a larger group will benefit them, I don't know if its worth the losses I'll no doubt encounter in doing so.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Whilst I'd have no issue altering the tank to better suit them, I fear I would need to start completely from scratch to do a good job. I could put an 'island' in that central area to help break up the sight lines, but that seems like it may not be enough - so by the sounds of it, having three in there is a no no!

An island would likely not work out. What may work is building up towards a hypothetical bank in the back and break the lines of sight with driftwood across the tank front to back at least in the middle. You could look around here and on other websites how people structured their tanks especially for Apistogramma.

For the females you would have to rearrange aswell. They have smaller territories than the males, but are territorial nonetheless.

For a single male maybe some more cover in the form of more branches, leaves and maybe a seedpod or two would be the only really necessary changes.

I myself have a smaller tank, so I have decided to keep only a single male, which was quite a good decision, I think.
 

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