unexplained deaths

[creaturemd]

About six months ago, I started a 20 gallon planted freshwater tank complete with CO2 system and all the trimmings. I'm using a fluval canister filter and high output compact lighting. Someone suggested apistos to accomodate my low pH (due to the CO2 injection) and I checked into them. I was immediately hooked and since then I have spent literally hundreds of dollars on DEAD fish. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. The fish are always introduced in pairs and there has never been more than a single pair in the tank at any one time (the tank wouldn't accomodate more). I'm using RO water and kH is between 4 and 5 german degrees. pH is in the low sixes. All other water parameters test within normal limits. What is especially frustrating is that the fish always seem to be doing great! I even had one pair of cacatuoides spawn before they suddenly dropped dead. A couple of pairs have lasted as long as six weeks. They always eat voraciously and appear robust and healthy. They behave normally and display and posture to one another in manners typical of breeding behavior. I've tried several different species (cacatuoides, viejita, pandurini), and I'm offering a varied diet of live, frozen, and freeze-dried foods. In summary, these are not sick fish! They never have any external lesions or exhibit obvious signs of illness prior to their sudden death. They literally just drop dead. I come home in the evening or wake up in the morning to a dead fish that was fine and eating the night before. I just don't understand what could be going on. I've heard of other people keeping these guys in the local tap water which is hard and alkaline with no problems whatsoever. Please help! If anyone can enlighten me at all, I could really use some advice. Could this be parasitic? Bacterial? Maybe attributable to the live food? I'm ready to give up on these guys. After spending so many hours reading and researching them and trying to make my water perfect, it will literally make me sick to have to settle for common junk fish. Please, please, please.....I'm at my wits end. Thanks. :cry:

 

[Randall]

Unexplained Death

Dear Creaturemd,

This is a tuffy.

A few questions for you please:

1. What size Fluval canister filter are you using, and how much water aggitation does it cause?

2. Are you using pure RO water, mixing it with tap or reconstituting it with a proprietary product?

3. How are the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels?

4. Have observed any clamped fins and/or rubbing against objects?

5. Due to the CO2 injection, is your aquarium subject to pH bounce?

6. How often are you performing water changes, and how much do you change?

7. Have you observed any swelling in the abdominal area, lack of appetite, color changes and/or long white feces that adhere to the anal pore for a long time before falling off?

Sorry for the inquisition; just trying to help.

Thanks!

Randall Kohn

 

[Neil]

creaturemd,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

I am very sorry that your intro to Apistogramma has gotten off to such a rocky start. Randalls questins are important and I would like to add;

1)Have you gotten these fih from the same place and have you seen the fish from the same tank that they came from remain healthy well after yours?

2) What type of live food?

I kind of don't think that it is your water parameters or food. It sounds like you have most everything down great. I also doubt, however, that it is a coincidence. Please answer the few of our questions and we'll see if we can help to straiten this out. Don't give up! You are doing too many things too well not to have success at this.
Neil

 

[creaturemd]

The canister filter is the next size up from the smallest standard filter Fluval makes. I'm sorry, I don't know the model # and I'm not writing from home so I'm unable to check. The filter should be large enough for the tank, and I'm using a diffuser bar so surface agitation is minimal. I'm actually using "purified" water from the store. The label indicates this water is prepared using several purification methods including R/O but NOT distillation. I'm not reconstituting, but I add Tropica Mastergrow liquid plant fertilizer which adds some mineral to the water. This tank's kH readings are consistenly 1-2 degrees higher than my other tank in which the "purified" water is also used but no fertilizer is added. The ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are zero. I've never observed clamped fins even in fish that are dying and no rubbing is evident. My CO2 system runs continuously so mild pH fluctuations are likely but minimal as morning and evening CO2, O2, and pH levels do not vary measurably. As I understand, a kH of 4-5 should be just sufficient to prevent extreme swings. I perform water changes every 1-2 weeks of up to 25%. I have observed no swelling, lack of appetite, color changes, abnormal feces, nor any other obvious signs of a problem. Most of these fish have come from the same place but a couple pairs did come from another store (I lost these immediately and that store proceeded to lose all of the fish in that shipment). The store from which most of the fish have come keeps them on an R/O system but pH levels are essentially neutral (7.0-7.2). My pH levels are low sixes and the fish are acclimated using standard bag technique. I don't feel this is an acclimation issue because the fish do well for weeks (up to 6) following introduction. The remaining fish in the store after purchase continue to do very well. I've actually gone through multiple pairs from the same shipment over a period of months as mine continue to die and I go back for more. Live foods that have been offered are brine shrimp and black worms but not all of the fish that I've lost this way have been offered the same foods i.e. not every fish that has died was offered blackworms and/or brine shrimp. These live items come from the local aquarium store. I was lead to believe apistos require live foods for proper health. I also feed frozen brine and mosquito larvae as well as freeze-dried tubifex and some flake foods, but they never accept frozen or freeze dried/flake foods as readily as live. The last pair of viejitas seemed to be doing very well on a diet of approx. 50% live blackworms and 50% other. They were eating better than previous pairs (thanks to their relish for blackworms) and gaining weight steadily. They appeared much stouter than other pairs in the store after several weeks. The male died suddenly yesterday. The remaining female still seems fine and is eating and behaving normally but I fear her days are numbered. As an aside, I also added some raspora espei to this tank recently and several have died over the last couple of weeks. They seemed to steadily lose weight in spite of good appetites and were off feed altogether the last few days. These are the first non-apistos that I've lost out of this tank since the beginning. A small pleco and a siamensis have inhabited the tank since it was cycled and are doing just fine. Hope that answers your questions and is helpful. Thank you so much for your help and concern. I'll check back frequently.
Heather

 

[aspen]

hi heather, a few thoughts:

no-one is likely going to be able to tell you why the fish are dying. but if it was up to me to guess, it would be a bacterial, viral or parasitic infection. obvious right? but there is some health issue associated with that tank, which your other fish are imune to, or can live with.

well, let's assume that you have racked your brain, and your water parms, and food issues have been painstakingly gone over time after time in your mind, and all is well. if it was me, i would run the tank fishless for at least a couple of weeks, maybe a month, while i quarentined new fish, the whole fishload, and watched all live healthily and successfully. then, add all of the fish to the tank and hold your breath.

the other option, is to take the next mortalities to the local test lab or university, for testing. then you will know for sure why they died. i would NOT re-use any of your current fish, for quite a while, while you are checking things out.

hth, rick

 

[farm41]

Hi Heather,

Sorry to hear about your problems.

What do you have for lights? watts?

You say your water is RO, but Kh 4-5 degrees, RO should be less than 1 degree.
Could you recheck the Ph just before lights on and just before lights out?

What do you have for a co2 system?