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Stressed female Elizabethae - advice needed

Zabesta

New Member
Messages
10
Hello all

I have a pair of A. Elizabethae in a 120x50x50cm, 300l heavily planted aquarium. Other inhabitants are a pair of Dicrossus Filamentosus, Nannostomus Eques, Paracheirodon Simulans, snails and a couple of Amano shrimps.

The Apistos are spawning fairly regularly every 3 weeks or so but nothing has yet come out of it.

My problem is whenever the female is not spawning or guarding eggs she is constantly being bullied and chased around by the male. She becomes a uniform grey colour and often hides. She is still eating though.

When she is guarding eggs she is much more dominant and puts the male back in his place.

What to do:
- get an extra Elizabethae female so the male's attention is divided?
- get another couple/male apisto? If so, similar looking or not?

Cheers
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
My problem is whenever the female is not spawning or guarding eggs she is constantly being bullied and chased around by the male. She becomes a uniform grey colour and often hides. She is still eating though.

When she is guarding eggs she is much more dominant and puts the male back in his place.
This is absolutely normal.

Seems your tank is unsuitably structured. Do you have wood and or rocks, that breack enough lines of sight? Restructuring the tank, so the female has a chance to evade the male is all that's necessary in such cases.

Otherwise the female will be worn down until she either falls ill or just drops dead.

Adding more fish: We're talking Apistogramma here, not Malawi cichlids. Overcrowding won't work unless you restructure the tank fitting for 3 territories. As be it a male or a female you add: Then it's three fish fighting each other.

Can you post a picture of the tank? I'd like to confirm what I just said.

Edit: I would also remove the Amanos long term. Brood predators stress out female dwarf cichlids additionally.
The Apistos are spawning fairly regularly every 3 weeks or so but nothing has yet come out of it.
With all these tankmates no wonder. I doubt you will have successful spawns.
 

Zabesta

New Member
Messages
10
@MacZ Thanks for your reply and the clarification about the couple relationship. There are so many different behaviours and interactions with these amazing fish and little information about it. It really helps to have people with experience to whom one can simply ask questions.

The female does manage to hide, if her change of colour and behaviour is normal then I'm more at ease.

The idea behind adding the second female was diverting the male's attention - he would then chase both females instead of only the one. I can see now it could instead lead to more problems so I won't consider it.

With all these tankmates no wonder. I doubt you will have successful spawns.
Breeding is not my main purpose, it would be a nice bonus though. I can understand that little to no fry would survive the tetras but what influence can that have on wether the eggs hatch or not? (That's been the issue until now with breeding)

Unless the Amanos are eating the eggs, which I didn't know could happen. I've never seen them show interest in the cave or the Apistos in general but who knows what happens during the night...

Pic of the tank:
20220327_202313.jpg

And just planted to give more an idea of the structure behind the plants:
20211202_204932.jpg

There is a coconut cave on each front corner.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
The idea behind adding the second female was diverting the male's attention - he would then chase both females instead of only the one. I can see now it could instead lead to more problems so I won't consider it.
The idea isn't bad in principle, but as often the females are territorial among each other as well, this would oben a second front and everybody is fighting everybody. Not necessarily a good idea. Also a second species of dwarf cichlid makes for even more stress during brooding.

Breeding is not my main purpose, it would be a nice bonus though. I can understand that little to no fry would survive the tetras but what influence can that have on wether the eggs hatch or not? (That's been the issue until now with breeding)
Stupid question, although the fact that you have living amano shrimp says it all: Do you use tapwater by any chance?

Pic of the tank:
20220327 202313

And just planted to give more an idea of the structure behind the plants:
20211202 204932

There is a coconut cave on each front corner.
Nicely done, but the structure is really unsuitable for most dwarf cichlids. Even with a lot of plants especially at the normal swimming level of the fish few lines of sight are brocken. A typical example of why aquascaping and dwarf cichlids do not always work together. Especially the open space in the front and left is problematic. The tank layout will likely work with Dicrossus, but Apistogramma... may not have been the best of choices.
 

Zabesta

New Member
Messages
10
Stupid question, although the fact that you have living amano shrimp says it all: Do you use tapwater by any chance?
It is the obvious question indeed. I use peat/alder/rooibos filtered RO and I'll add some calcium and magnesium up to 0.5gh IF the plants look like they need it (hasn't been necessary at all for the past months). TDS is sitting at around 70 after water change, rising to 90 by the end of the week due to ferts. I'm slowly reducing ferts to see if there's any effect on breeding, seems like it is still unknown if other minerals or only calcium/magnesium and carbonates play a part on the egg development?

Anyway, since everything is inert in the tank apart from the acidic aquasoil, there should be 0KH and very little to no GH.

How are the Amanos and snails still alive? I assume they get some minerals from the leftover fish food. You can see some shell erosion on the snails but they still multiply...
few lines of sight are brocken.
I wish my male apisto was dumber, when the female goes around a corner he simply follows her, she goes in a hole? He goes in the hole. Fish brains are evolving and soon they will take over the world, mark my words.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
It is the obvious question indeed. I use peat/alder/rooibos filtered RO and I'll add some calcium and magnesium up to 0.5gh IF the plants look like they need it (hasn't been necessary at all for the past months). TDS is sitting at around 70 after water change, rising to 90 by the end of the week due to ferts. I'm slowly reducing ferts to see if there's any effect on breeding, seems like it is still unknown if other minerals or only calcium/magnesium and carbonates play a part on the egg development?
As I thought, although not as much as I feared. Try to get TDS down to below 50mg/l. That might do the trick. You have blackwater species fishwise. The Amanos and snails won't like that though. The connection with the minerals and the eggs is that at higher conductivity the eggs fall prey to bacteria very easily. The lower TDS and EC, the better for such species.
I wish my male apisto was dumber, when the female goes around a corner he simply follows her, she goes in a hole? He goes in the hole.
Exactly the kind of behaviour I expected. You will have to restructure the tank rather sooner than later. Or rehome the Apistos, stick to the Dicrossus and put in leaf litter.
Fish brains are evolving and soon they will take over the world, mark my words.
I'll only believe it when I see it.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Agree, I would have structured it differently had I known better.
I know. But it's alright as long as you learn from it and improve the holding conditions of your fish. What you also could do: Remove the female and just leave the male alone. That's the preferred method for communities.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
It is the obvious question indeed. I use peat/alder/rooibos filtered RO and I'll add some calcium and magnesium up to 0.5gh IF the plants look like they need it (hasn't been necessary at all for the past months). TDS is sitting at around 70 after water change, rising to 90 by the end of the week due to ferts. I'm slowly reducing ferts to see if there's any effect on breeding, seems like it is still unknown if other minerals or only calcium/magnesium and carbonates play a part on the egg development?
Have a look at this post:
Post in thread 'Water Parameters for Breeding'
https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/water-parameters-for-breeding.23486/post-109418
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Plants, even easy floaters like salvinia, pennywort or frogbit give up at around 35-45 mg/l TDS. That's where I keep them in my tank.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
I'm struggling with that right now. I'm trying to keep my EC below 40 us, the lower end of that range. I know people do it with Salvinia, Phyllanthus fluitans, Ceratopteris thalictroides, etc. But my plants are *really* unhappy except for some emersed growth from the Ceratopteris. I also have some Pistia and Ceratophyllum demersum in there, hopefully something sticks.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I'm struggling with that right now. I'm trying to keep my EC below 40 us, the lower end of that range. I know people do it with Salvinia, Phyllanthus fluitans, Ceratopteris thalictroides, etc. But my plants are *really* unhappy except for some emersed growth from the Ceratopteris. I also have some Pistia and Ceratophyllum demersum in there, hopefully something sticks.
Go only for emerse plants then. Hydrocotyle and Epipremnum (aka Pothos) should work.
 

Iormungand21

New Member
Messages
29
For what it's worth, I have had a successful (well fry growing at the moment) breeding of a pair of Elizabethae.

My tank setup is as follows:

7 Gallon cube
PH - 5.5-6
TDS 100-200 (I dont police this closely, it goes up overtime between water changes, but I use RODI water and Seachem equilibrium).
Temp: 81F


Tank setup, sand bottom with capped fluval stratum in the back. Some Rotalia Rotundifolia and stellatus octopus to what extent they will grow in these parameters and Ozelot Sword.

1 stone, and a big pile of mixed leaves, mostly catappa and some oak I collected.

Also, a group of 6 Nannostomus Marginatus as dithers, and maybe some left but they hide all the time in the leaf litter of Euryrynchus Amazoniensis shrimps. ,

No idea where they spawned, I was planning on adding a cave for them soon but didnt think they were mature enough for breeding when I suddenly found the female with a troupe of babies.

This gallery has Dad, Mom, a baby, and a shot of the tank layout.
 

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