problems with ram fry

[electric eel]

after being out of the hobby after a couple of years i have started to keep and breed a few kinds of fish again.i have raised at least 2 or 3 thousand rams in the past but for some reason this time around i am having problems.this particular pair will eat the fry if i leave them in for more then about a day.i used to try to leave them with the parents for the first few days but it varied from pair to pair.the parents are in soft water (about 50 ppm) that i soak 4 or 5 indian almond leaves in about 5 gallons of water for a couple of days.this is what i do the water changes with.dont know ph as my meter isnt working properly(but i really dont care what ph is parents are happy and hatching @ 200 to 250 eggs every 2 to 3 weeks) i suck the fry out as soon as they freeswim into a 2.5 gallon tank.first time they all fungused up .second time i managed to salvage 47 fry.16 the third time and only 6 the fourth time.they just had a bunch freeswim and it looks like the majority of these guys are going to die too. they stay right at the top of the tank in the corners and against the side of the tank and die within a day and a half.i cant figure out whats going on.i thought maybe there was a lot of ammonium in the parents tank water(i only change 5 gallons every 7 to 9 days because i have limited access to soft water unlike before when i was breeding them and had as much as i needed) and that possibly when i added the green water or infusoria(it was in my hard tap water ) the ph was going above 7 and the ammonium was turning into ammonia and killing the fry.i was very careful this time not to add anything that wasnt in parents tank water and i added a small amount of prime when i took them(i suck them out with quarter inch rigid tubing and a length of airline just like i always did) .it would take longer for them to starve to death then they are living so i know something is killing them.the 47 i got to live i did 100% water change into my clean 400ppm 8.4 ph tapwater.i always transitioned them into my tapwater when they were a few days old but i normally did it incrementally over the course of a day.the only thing i used to do differently was that i kept the fry in gallon jugs until they were big enough to take newly hatched bbs in stead of 2.5 gallon tanks(with maybe 1.5 gallons initially of water) i have decided to set up a couple more 10 gallon tanks and move the parents around instead of the fry which i think will solve the problem(i'll have to come up with more soft water though) but i still would like to know what is making them go up to the top of the tank like that.i had electric blue ram fry do this to me before right before i quit keeping fish and was only able to get a handful of them to survive.i never figured out what the problem was.i tried putting a light over them this time but it didnt help.have any of you ever had this happen before.i thought about trying to get another pair to work with to see if they might raise the fry to at least 3 or 4 days old(i found i was pretty much home free once they go to the point that they could take bbs) but i havnt seen any around here that are nearly as pretty as this pair some of the fry will be ready to spawn in a couple months and i plan on working with them.they are about 1.5 inches long and already starting to color up really nicely.

 

[sasikan]

that's a long story i sort of got lost but i think you want to know why your fry's are dying?i not an expert but this is what i do. When i make a water change i take the water from the parents tank, i change the water 10 minutes after every feeding, i feed them paramecis or grindal (microworms)worms for the first 3 days, then start to mix with brine shrimps . Buy the time they are one week old i take them out of the one gallon jar and give them a 5 or 10 gallon tank Dont forget rams like it hot i keep them at 80 82 .Hope this helps!

 

[electric eel]

that's a long story i sort of got lost but i think you want to know why your fry's are dying?i not an expert but this is what i do. When i make a water change i take the water from the parents tank, i change the water 10 minutes after every feeding, i feed them paramecis or grindal (microworms)worms for the first 3 days, then start to mix with brine shrimps . Buy the time they are one week old i take them out of the one gallon jar and give them a 5 or 10 gallon tank Dont forget rams like it hot i keep them at 80 82 .Hope this helps!

as i said i have literally raised a few thousand rams and am doing things essentially like i used to but for some reason something is messing things up.at one point if i took 150 fry i was sucessfully raising 150 fry.i like to grow my ram fry out in my hardwater(even when i had ample ro water before)they are way hardier and also much more colorful.they transition readily from the hard water to soft as adults.i have tried microworms,infusoria and vinegar eels this time around for first foods also greenwater.

 

[sasikan]

maby not good genetics? try rams from a different source ? do you have a bubbler in your rearing jar? could it be too strong and knocking the frys around?

 

[electric eel]

maby not good genetics? try rams from a different source ? do you have a bubbler in your rearing jar? could it be too strong and knocking the frys around?

i tried adjusting the air coming from the airstone.i cut it way back this last time.i may try again and use a gallon jar.i dont see what difference it could make but who knows.was using the 2.5's so i could put a heater in there as my house was cooler then i wanted the fry but i have a heat mat i could put a gallon jar on.the 47 i got to live from the second spawn seem really hardy.they wont be 2 months old until 6/2 and are about 1.5 inches and already coloring up really nicely so i dont think its genetics.its personal at this point and i wont be happy until i figure out whats going on.i always did them pretty much like my angelfish fry in gallon jugs(except for using smaller food than bbs initially) and it worked really well.i wonder if it doesnt have something to do with the surface tension of the water but i dont know what to do about it if it is.i also wondered if maybe i have been overzealous in making sure they had something to eat and overfed them.i was a lot more careful about that this last time but it didnt seem to help.it took me a while to work out the bugs when i did them before and unfortunately i didnt keep a log so i really dont have a solid reference for the problems i dealt with last time.it seemed to me like last time as i worked with the offspring from my fish it got easier.seemed like maybe the fry that did survive had some genetic inclination to produce fry that were better adapted to surviving using the method i was using.maybe they were slightly bigger or hardier i dont know.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Hi Craig, can't help with the question, but pleased to see you back, hope things are better now.
cheers Darrel

 

[electric eel]

Hi all,
Hi Craig, can't help with the question, but pleased to see you back, hope things are better now.
cheers Darrel

thanks Darrell i'm really puzzled by this and yes things are better.sure was a lot easier to breed fish when i had a fishroom with a more controlled environment.i swore i was done with fishkeeping lol but i had a barn full of tanks and loads of equipment and i just couldnt resist.probably shouldnt even be messing with rams until i come up with a good solution for providing soft water.my water pressure at this old farmhouse is too low for an ro unit and i'm surrounded by fields of crops.the farmers spray a lot of chemicals so i'm afraid to collect rainwater.looked for a scource of bulk di resin but couldnt find one in the u.s. unless i wanted to buy a whole skid.probably going to try installing an inline pump to boost my water pressure but i need everything new for my ro/di unit(membrane and cartridges) money's been tight so i've been trying to make due with what i have.i had a case of di cartridges for jack wattleys little filters that i bought a long time ago but i don't get enough usable water out of them to make them cost effective .i've been using those until i can figure out what i want to do.

 

[electric eel]

wish i had gotten some input.i have wigglers again today.i'm guessing around 300 eggs were laid.i actually counted the fry(with an eyedropper i used to always do this years ago so i had an idea of my survival rate-kind of anal retentive i guess)time before last and sucked out 250 fry and there were more eggs this time.it kills my soul to lose the fry but i still havent decided which route i want to take.i thought about trying the 2.5 gallon again but painting the bottom black(should have done this from the git go) or i thought about pulling the male and leaving the female in with the fry.i have always had a theory that most of the time when rams eat their fry it is because they fight over who will take care of them.in my experience the male would usually end up with about 3/4 of the fry and the female maybe a 1/4 and they would keep fighting over them and eventually eat them.i've only had a couple pairs out of maybe 15 that would raise fry together and they were still unpredictable.they might raise one batch and turn around and eat the next.it always seemed to me it was just easier to pull the fry.it gets hard to catch the fry out of the parents tank if you let them get very old but at this point that is looking like a good problem to have.i also thought about trying a gallon jug but i hate to mess with setting up a 10 gallon tank with 3 or 4 inches of water and a heater.i always put my jugs in the 10 gallon this is the only way i know to reliably control the temp in the jug.it varies too much with changes in ambient temp with a heat mat.

 

[wethumbs]

I dont ever pull the fry, in fact the parents stay with the fry for at least 4 weeks. This is one of my latest spawn of EBR with 500 week old fry. I will only pull the males if I dont want them to spawn too soon.

 

[electric eel]

good looking fish.forgive me if i'm somewhat sceptical that every pair you've ever spawned parent raised the fry.i've talked with enough people to know this is not normally the case.i did have one pair that were really good parents.they even spawned with a bunch of fry in the tank.of course the older fry ate almost all of the new ones.

 

[wethumbs]

Here are pictures of a few of the pairs with fry, just a few....

These are 2 weeks old fry at the time of the picture from a different pair and
they are 4 weeks old now...still with the parents.

Here is another pair with 1 week old fry.

Yet another pair with fry

Another pair from previous generation.

These are 6 weeks old fry still with the parents.

I had 4 pairs of them, all raised their own fry.

 

[sasikan]

i know i am getting sidetracked here, but if you get a chance to buy fish from wethumbs you will not be disappointed.i ordered fish from him (3 days shipping all the way across the usa into canada) they arrived here no problem . nice healthy fish

 

[wethumbs]

If rams are such poor parents, they would have become extinct in the wild. They are actually extremely good parents. The problem is not the ram but the breeders or actually the commercial breeders who mass produce them. Instead of taking the time to let the parents raise the fry, they opt for the artificial method. After a few generations, the rams will loss part of their parental instinct. Base on my observation and experiment, it only takes one spawn for a ram to learn how to properly care for the fry from another ram, in this case a mate that has the proper parental instinct. I remove the 'teacher' from the 2nd spawn and the 'student' raised the entire spawn without issue. Most hobbyists dont take the time or want to take the time to systematically solve the problem and rely on others with similar demeanors to concur with them. I understand this is a hobby, but take the time and effect to 'learn' the hobby would make it so much more enjoyable.
Back to the fry raising issue. Obviously the person had successful raised ram by the thousands before and only recently is having issue. Unfortunately, none of us can provide an answer here as we dont know all the details. There are too many factors that affect the survivability of a fry than I care to list out. It is correct that the critical period of ram fry is the first few days after freeswimming before they are big enough to take bbs. You will have to systematically work through the problem and only then can you have a 'bullet proof' method in raising ram.

 

[electric eel]

its pretty well documented that rams are not very good parents in the wild.at least compared to apistos and a lot of other dwarf cichlids.you are obviously doing something right.i owe you an apology.i was more than a little sceptical about you leaving the fry with the parents that long.you see a lot of pictures or video on the internet of rams swimming with newly freeswimming fry but i have'nt seen any pictures of them swimming with older fry until yours.i figured this thing out before by myself and i will figure it out this time.i'm in a less than ideal situation and as i said really miss the advantages that come along with having a fishroom.

 

[wethumbs]

I saw you indicate the fry would stay at the water surface. It is my observation and a few that I talked to (I dont talk to too many people) that ram fry are phototaxic in the absence of parents. Once they are at the surface, they tend to struggle against surface movement. Ram parents always make sure the fry stay at the bottom of the tank or in some depression.
This may or may not be similar to **** Au's observation of discus fry behavior that are raised artificially. In the absence of light the fry would swim against fast moving water current until they are exhausted and die. Obviously there are many other reasons for fry to swim to the top.

 

[electric eel]

I saw you indicate the fry would stay at the water surface. It is my observation and a few that I talked to (I dont talk to too many people) that ram fry are phototaxic in the absence of parents. Once they are at the surface, they tend to struggle against surface movement. Ram parents always make sure the fry stay at the bottom of the tank or in some depression.
This may or may not be similar to **** Au's observation of discus fry behavior that are raised artificially. In the absence of light the fry would swim against fast moving water current until they are exhausted and die. Obviously there are many other reasons for fry to swim to the top.

i don't know whats going on.i decided to leave them with both parents and see what happens.they were freeswimming this morning.looked like a few were already gone before i left the house around eleven.they try really hard to be good parents.i think they may figure things out if i give them a chance.he is just so damn mean to her though.my good parent raising pair i had 4 years ago or so fought alot.the male beat the female up almost every spawn and then at some point she had had enough and tore him up pretty good.i thought he would die.stayed behind the sponge filter for a week or two only coming out to eat.after that they were good and didnt fight much.i've decided to just chill.the group i have growing out are starting to color up and spar.going to figure out a solution to my water problem and set up some pairs out of that bunch.