newbie question

[Derek]

Actually I am not even a newbie yet, as I am still in the planning stages. I already have a 55 gallon african tank, and a spare 20h that I want to do something different with.

I've already decided that I am going to set up a planted community tank with either a pair of rams or apistos, but I would like some experienced input as far as the substrate is concerned.

What is the best substrate to use for a planted apisto/ ram tank? I have been considering the eco-complete plant substrate or flourite and am open to suggestions. I've seen people list several layers (peat, laterite, flourite...) or just use sand.

I'll be using tap water, 2 20-watt bulbs, and am planning on putting together a DIY CO2 system. I have enough pool filter sand and play sand to use either, but I thought the plants might do better in the either the clay, or the eco-complete. I think the darker color of those substrates would look nicer in the planted tank as well.

 

[depthc]

Actually I am not even a newbie yet, as I am still in the planning stages. I already have a 55 gallon african tank, and a spare 20h that I want to do something different with.

I've already decided that I am going to set up a planted community tank with either a pair of rams or apistos, but I would like some experienced input as far as the substrate is concerned.

What is the best substrate to use for a planted apisto/ ram tank? I have been considering the eco-complete plant substrate or flourite and am open to suggestions. I've seen people list several layers (peat, laterite, flourite...) or just use sand.

I'll be using tap water, 2 20-watt bulbs, and am planning on putting together a DIY CO2 system. I have enough pool filter sand and play sand to use either, but I thought the plants might do better in the either the clay, or the eco-complete. I think the darker color of those substrates would look nicer in the planted tank as well.

If your going the planted tank route and you want a pair of either apistos or rams i suggest you have multiple layers. Generally these fish like fine gravel or sand for breeding and feeding reasons. So i suggest you first try and upgrade your light to possibly a 55 watt cf fixture. This will give you a good amount of light for a planted tank. I only suggest this because if you were to go the route of eco complete or flourite you wanna make sure you can grow and sustain these plants. The two 20 watts im guessing are screw in floro lights which gives you approximately 2 watts per gallon. You also have to take into factor thats its a 20 gallon high.

So if you do decide to upgrade your lighting might i suggest you side with AH Supply. Great company with decent prices and great reflectors. If you got the 55w bright kit ($42) and the 55w 6700K bulb ($19) it would run you about $61 + shipping charges. Much, much cheaper than anything you would find locally in say a pet store. Ive ordered from there before and it doesnt take much to put together.

Anyways, back to the topic. If you wanted to grow a nice planted tank id suggest you go with eco complete and put a layer of sand ontop of this to better suit the fish.

Let us know a little more about your plans as far as heavily planted or lightly planted ...

Andrew

 

[Derek]

Thanks for the quick response.

I would have to say heavily planted is what I am looking to do. I basically want to create a tank that is the opposite of my mbuna tank- which is a black background with rock piles and a couple of fake plants. I like it, but I'd like to try something else too. I really am just getting started on this. I was hoping to get started this weekend with the substrate and getting the tank cycled. Right now I have some java fern, micro sword and anubias in my 10 gallon. I was hoping to put some live plants in my 55 gallon, but the fish just about destroyed the java fern I put in there.

How does the substrate layering work? Does it stay separated, or does it eventually all get mixed together? How much of each would you recommend using?

Thanks for the link for the lighting, too. I was planning on constructing a canopy, and that kit looks like it would be perfect. Will 55w be enough light for a heavily planted tank?

I’m excited to start setting up another tank. Thanks for your advice.

 

[depthc]

Well 55 watts would be adequate .. approximately 2.75 wpg (watts per gallon). You should be able to grow yourself a nice jungle with this lighting.

Have you checked into making the DIY C02 unit yet ? If not you can read that article, its fairly easy to do.

As for the substrate, yes its easy as it sounds. Just put down a good amount of eco complete. Which have you decided on ? Say 2 inches eco complete and 1 - 1.5 inches sand. If you are careful in layering the two and as well as planting you should be able to keep them layered with not to much mixing. Overtime yes they will become somewhat mixed but this is dependent upon your planting, uprooting, and fish digging.

Also, decided upon rams or apistos and if so which species ?

For some inspiration :
20G Ram breeding tank journal (pics included) - using 55w also, simular setup.

20g planted - using 55w too.

20g planted - using 2 20w overdriven 4x.

Let me know if youve got any more questions. :wink:

Andrew

 

[Derek]

I have all of the parts for the DIY CO2 unit sitting next to the tank.

I haven't researched apistos A LOT yet, but it seems that A. agassizii and A. cacatuoides are suitable for beginners like myself. I would imagine that it will be weeks before I will be ready to move them in. Some of what I've read leads me to believe that a breeder would be a better place to go than a LFS. I know of one LFS that lists wild caught apistos (haven't been there yet), but I would think I would have better luck with something that was bred to live in an aquarium.

Another LFS near me has rams, but its probably the same situation as with the apistos. I have some time before I really have to decide- hopefully aquabid will be back by then.

I think both rams and apistos are beautiful, it may end up being a matter of what I can find that looks healthy. Will I have an easier time with rams in tap water?

I'll hopefully pick up the eco-complete this weekend and get things moving.

One other question: I used the fishless cycle method to get my 55 cycled. I was planning on doing the same thing with this tank. Should I hold off on putting any plants in there until after it's cycled?

Thanks for the links. Good inspiration. I think jungle is exactly what I am going for, so it sounds like the lighting kit will work well for me.

 

[depthc]

No plants should go in pretty much immediately after you get the tank setup with the new lighting. This will give the plants time to get ahold of the tank before any algae does. So make sure you get some fast growing stem plants (water wisteria, water sprite, water lettuce to name a few) to start out your tank and plant dense in the beginning. Most people dont do this and have algae problems because of it so be sure to get enough plants in the beginning. The plants will be fine during the fishless cycle.

Also what are your tap water parameters (ph, gh, kh) ?

Stop by the local shop with the wild apistos first just to get a good look on what you have locally. Lucky if you can find some i sure cant. If you looking for apistos theres many places to get them. I will be very soon ordering some apistos from Ray McCaleb (www.apistoman.com) he has them for sale on his site so there is no hassle in winning a auction on aquabid. Hes got a pretty good selection and they are great quality. On aquabid Dave Soares (apistodave) sells a variety of apistos so youll most likely run into his auctions. He runs them every week but currently aquabid is down. Im sure there are other sources even on this board but those are the two main ones ive ran into lately.

I will be getting A. cacatuoides and A. borelli which both are 'easy' apistos to start out with and they fair well in water with slightly alkaline water and an increased hardness. Let me know your water parameters and it should help in your decision on which apisto you chose if you do so. Note with rams youll need soft water to hatch the eggs as with many other apistos.

Okay, well good luck with the eco complete. Are you sure its in your area? Many people cant find it locally and have to resort to ordering it which can be expensive due to hefty shipping charges due to weight.

Good luck and im open for any questions you come across.

Andrew

 

[GalaxiePete]

Personally, I have a similar setup in one tank - eco complete, 2x20 Bulbs - but in a 29 high. I'm using tap water flourish, flourish iron & flourish excel. No CO2.

The tank is rather heavily planted. Lots of Java Moss - growing like mad. 3 kinds of Crypts, Wysteria, temple plant & val. Everything is doing really well. Probably will be changing some of the plants out in a while, but it is a good setup for my endlers.

 

[Derek]

I finally got around to testing my tap water. I set up my old water change pail (I should have bought a python from the start) with an old powerhead and let it run for 24 hrs. The results from testing:

GH: 5.5 dH
KH: 4.5 dH
pH: 7.9-8.0

I don't know if I am still within the realm of possibility for keeping apistos. I know the pH is high, but it is my understanding that the CO2 and wood in the tank will help lower that (peat too?). I know there are products available to lower pH as well.

As for substrate, I did some checking around the area, and I haven't been able to find the eco-complete. Lots of flourite out there, though. If I were to use that, would it be the same set up with 2 inches of flourite with an inch or 1-1/2 of the play sand on top? Would including peat in the substrate help the pH?

A LFS near me also has A. cacatuoides available that look OK to me. The place with the WC apistos is across town. I was planning on checking it out today, but we are supposed to get hammered with snow today (it has already started), and its not worth the risk (or frustration) driving out there in that kind of weather. I have sent an email and am hoping for a quick response.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[depthc]

Hey Derick,

Yes thats correct. With the additional injection of C02 it should lower your pH and hardness. This is a good way to lower your pH as well as feed your plants so definately go this route. Also stay away from products that lower and raise your ph. They dont work for long and when they rebound it can cause serious stress with your fish usually resulting in death or disease so steer clear from ph products.

Flourite should work fine. Many people use and so do I. So yep do the same thing with flourite except you really need to wash this stuff up real good to avoid water clarity problems.

Also you may want to add a very thin layer of peat on the bottom of the tank before you place the flourite and then sand. It should help soften up your water some and taint the water a slight yellow brown.

I suggest you try out the cacatuoides you can get locally. It will save you a bundle in cash and if they look decent your not really siding with anything less in quality. But thats up to you. Keep us updated with the tanks progress ...

Andrew

 

[Derek]

Well, I have not made much progress with the 20H, but I put a few new plants into my 10 gal that I had a pleco and a couple of the plants in that I was trying to save after trying them in my african tank. I also changed the sand substrate to a layer of peat and fluorite. Everything seems to be going OK. I need to do some trimming to remove some yellow leaves- I was concerned about those, but there appears to be plenty of new growth coming in. I guess I'll have to keep up on the plants to keep the tank looking good. The hornwart I put in there looks like its doubled in size

I will finally be ordering the recommended light this week and am probably buying a new 20H to go with the stand that I have. Would a 20L be a better choice for this project? I ask because I know the floor area of the tank is important, and I am sure everything else would work well in the other tank. I was trying to salvage the stand that I have, but now that aquabid is back up, I may be able to find someone to buy it. If I am going to buy a new tank (the old one is in rough shape), I might as well make the situation ideal. If I do get a new tank (20L), would the same 1x55 fixture still be OK?

As for the fish, I stopped by the place across town to take a look at what they had:

A. macmasteri
A. panduro
A. cacatuoides

They all looked good to me- especially the panduro. Another local fish shop also has A. cacatuoides that looked healthy, in case I don't feel like treking across town again. Of these three, should I stick with the cockatoos? (as a noob)

With the peat and CO2, my pH is at about 7.8. Not much better. Of course, this is using the liquid drop test kit. Interpretting the colors on those things can be a little fuzzy. I have read posts on making peat tea, and that may help things a little. Buying RO water may be an option based on what the required water changes need to be. I currently change about 20% weekly in my african tank. Should I expect the same rate with apistos, or less- or more?

Thanks for the advice so far. Hopefully I'll have some pictures to show off in a few weeks.

 

[depthc]

The same light should be fine for a long. Be sure to take in the light length as well as the tank length.

With your water as it is i would say stick with the cacatuoides and see how they fair in your water. In the future you may want to look into purchasing a RO unit. If you got a RO unit you would be able to house any apistos youd like.

As for water changes you will want to do a fair amount each week. Apistos are somewhat sensitive to nitrates so keep up on the wc's and you shouldnt have any problems.

Andrew

 

[Derek]

OK. The light has been ordered. I also picked up a new 20H and switched out the oak frame from my old tank. It was easy getting the frame off the new tank, but getting it off the old one was not fun. It's over. It probably would have been worth the extra drive and $12 to just go pick an oak one up (I guess I'm cheap), but I didn't think getting the old frames off was going to be that difficult.

I am going to get the tank cycling this week, and once the light box is assembled, I will get the plants that I have in my 10 gallon moved over. I have a couple of additional questions now.

I am running a whisper 20 on the 10 gallon tank and have noticed that the water circulation at the surface is not great. The water looks clean on the side the filter is on, but (because the hornwort has now tripled in size) it is pretty much stagnant on the other side. I was just planning on putting a whisper 40 (which I already have) on the 20, but I am guessing there are probably much better filter choices out there for this tank's needs. I was thinking about picking up a smaller AC that I could use in conjuction with my whisper 20. I don't know how much flow is too much. Would running 2 HOB's be too much or not enough filtration? Would you recommend a different filter for this setup? I already have the whisper 40 on my african tank (along with a canister) so if that is good enough, I'll be happy to use it. I know that tank has plenty of filtration already. I just put it in there to keep the filter cycled. I was thinking I could throw some peat into an AC to help control the pH, though.

Also, I noticed that I am starting to get some snails. I thought my africans might enjoy them, but the one I plucked out and threw into my african tank was shown little interest. I took it out and disposed of it. As far as controlling them in the planted apisto tank, I've read that the apistos will eat them, but I don't know if they'd be able to keep up, and I don't want to deal with an infestation if I can nip the problem in the bud now. I've only seen three, but i am guessing they're like roaches and if I saw one, I might be in for a headache. The tank has some inhabitants already- 3 green fire tetras and 3 otos- so I am leary of using chemicals. My quarantine tank is holding one of my mbuna- I'd hate to see what she'd to the tetras if I put them in with her. Any suggestions for that? I thought I could pick up a couple of botia to snack on the snails, but I don't know how effective that would be.

Thanks for all your advice, Andrew. As I said before, I hope to have some pictures soon. It's nice to have someone helping me out with this.

 

[depthc]

Alright seems like your on the right track. As for filteration Ive used one penguin mini and at times two penguin minis on a 10 gallon tank. With one it seems theres not much circulation but with to it seems to much. I suggest you only use one power filter. If youd like better circulation you could try and place the filter in the center of the back aquarium pane. This will provide with best circulation in the tank but i dont think its necassary. Also less surface agitation is better in planted tanks due to less dissapation of the C02 in the water which is utilized by the plants.

For your snail problem i dont know of any sure 100% erradication methods but there is one that involves putting cucumber(i think) in a plastic container and a few hours later it should be filled with snails. Remove the container and dispose of the snails. I guess youll have to get used to them being there unless you can figure out a great method or read up on one.

Andrew

 

[Derek]

I finally got my first pair of apistos. I ended up getting a. pandurini because I had made the trek out to the LFS and they only had male cacs left. There were plenty of apistos there, but all they had were males except for what I purchased.

Do you have any recommendations as far as what I should try to feed and foods I should avoid? The LFS told me they were using frozen brine shrimp, frozen blood worms, flake and live black worms. They wouldn't touch the frozen BS that I have, so I picked up some black worms after work tonight. They loved those. I'm just concerned that they might not be the best choice for food. I am going to try live BS too, and would be willing to hatch my own.

Thanks for all of the advice. I need to get a little better with the digital camera before I can post pics.

I was wondering if this thread would get moved...

 

[BigDaddy]

My panduros readily take flake, frozen brine/glassworms/bloodworms and live BBS and grindal worms.