Looking for Pel.pulcher with collection locations

[fisheads]

Hello eveyone out there, I am hoping that there are some people out on the forum who can help me on this quest. I am looking for Pel. pulcher that are pure strains. I have been collecting Pel. pulcher types for the last couple of years and now have 3 types of of Pel. pulcher that I have propogated from wild fish collected from a single collection site. I am more than willing to purchase fry or to trade fish with anyone who might have fish that I am looking for. The only thing that I ask is that this criteria is followed.
1. You know the original source of your fish and they can be traced back to their collection from the wild. My friend thinks they are from wild fish does not count. A collection location is a major bonus as I am hoping that we can have locations attached to these fish the same way we do with Pel. taeniatus
2. Known number of generations from wild fish. Use F designation. example (F4 forth generation from wild) I am not concerned with line breeding as much as I am concerned with "Clean genetic material"

3. You know the name of hobbists/store/or importer that the fish came from. Fish bought in an auction from an unknown source are no good for my purposes.

I realize that the criteria may seem a bit demanding but I am trying to set up a system so that the fish that are in the hobby are true represntatives of their strains and also that the brightly coloured "Kribs" that you see in books are not just in books.

The strains that I currently have and would have available for trade are
Pel. pulcher Form B Green phase location Etiop River F3
Pel. pulcher Form B Red phase location Nigeria F4 (Called Cherry Reds or German Reds)
Pel. pulcher Form B Yellow phase location South of Lagos Nigeria F1
Pel. pulcher Albino Form A Yellow phase European blood line
Pel. pulcher Blizzard Form A Yellow phase European blood line
(Albino with Black eyes. not a fixed strain yet)

I am looking for any Pel. pulcher locations that I currently do not have but I am very interested in the following.
1. Pel. sacrimentis ( Also know as P.aff. pulcher Form B )
2. Pel. pulcher ndonga Cameroon ( Had them once but was not successful in breeding them. only Pel. pulcher from the Cameroons)
3. any Pel. pulcher Form A colour phases except albino.
Form A means a very faint Black lateral line except when spawning or frightened
Form B means a very dark black lateral line at all times

Any help for you out there would be appriciated.

 

[Neil]

That is a tall order. Many importers cannot provide specific collection info or may provide info that is not accurate.
I would think that a good place to start would be by contacting Toyin. He usually has many imported Westie species and typically has very valid information about their collection locations.
Neil

 

[cootwarm]

Hi,

I case you haven't seen this post yet, A couple months back Randall posted a message about some wild caught Pel. sacrimentis being available from Zang Exotic Fish Company that were collected from Nigeria. Here is a short cut link to this string:
http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1081

This fish is still available. I've been pondering a purchase myself, but I'm getting my first Apistos and don't have tank space available right now. Here is a link to the Zang site:
http://www.zangfish.com/cgi-bin/fishpage.cgi?42

Hope this helps. Or perhaps you were looking for a location more specific than just the country name?

Michael

 

[fisheads]

Thank you Neil and Micheal for you help. I have received fish from Toyin before and will definately order from him again. His fish were great! I am hoping that he still has the Pel.pulcher Ndonga when I can order again. As for Pel. sacrimentis I thought that I seen it advertised on aquabid a couple of months ago. I could not remember where. Being in Canada I am not sure if he will be able to send me the fish but I will contact him to see what he might be able to do.
I realise that I am asking for the extra mile with locations but I always think that you should aim high. Knowing for sure that the fish are wild and all from the same collection site is the most important thing and like I said the locations will be a bonus. I remember a time when all the Pel. teaniatus were just Nigerian Red, Green, and Yellow with no locations. Now we have a different location showing up every 6 months!

Again thanks for the help guys and if you stumble onto anything else please let me know.
Best Regards
Haydn

 

[coenga]

I realise that I am asking for the extra mile with locations but I always think that you should aim high.

I Haynd,

Your quest is very interesting, because Pv pulcher is usually lost in "F1000" commercial production, and this specie complex needs to be clarified as taeniatus complex needs it.
I'm sorry that I cannot help you, but I can only approve your high aiming that is the best way to achieve good results.

good luck in your pulcher quest,

best regards,

Colin

 

[fisheads]

Hello Colin, thank you for your kind words and encouragement. Since my posting I now have a contact for Pel. sacrimentis and Toyin still has Pel. pulcher Ndonga out of Cameroon. So that will be 2 more down.
I am also having a shipment of fish coming out of Nigeria in mid-August from a supplier that is mainly killifish but I will also be getting some Pelvics in the same shipment with the locations with them. It wil be atleast one collection of Pel. suboccelatus, Pel. pulcher and Pel. taeniatus in the shipment . I am hoping that by having one collector in Nigeria including collection information with his fish that maybe it might catch on.
I have also taken pictures of the different types of Pel. pulchers that I am currently working with and as soon as I learn how to post these pictures I will have a link to them.

 

[Randall]

Pelvicachromis pulcher Coloration

Dear Haydn,

It's nice to see someone working so seriously with a perennial favorite. Rather than respond to your quest right away, I thought I'd wait and see what others might contribute. This forum benefits from a good number of knowledgeable, highly skilled hobbyists.

Tracking collection localities of tank raised Pelvicachromis pulcher can be difficult because this fish was first introduced to the hobby in the early 1950s and has been bred in captivity ever since. Consequently, I think that working with wild caught and F1 fish is definitely the way to go.

Where coloration corresponding to various populations is concerned, there is something that I'd like to share. Our Colin is a great Pelvicachromis enthusiast, and he researches these fish. Some time ago, he kindly forwarded a very interesting paper to me concerning the mating tactics of P. pulcher referenced here.

Martin E. & Michael Taborsky. 1997. Alternative male mating tactics in a cichlid, Pelvicachromis pulcher: a comparison of reproductive effort and success. Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol. (1997) 41: 311-319.

In their paper, the authors discuss the three possible reproductive strategies of P. pulcher males: monogamous (pair males), polygymous (harem males) and helpers in a harem territory (satelite males). Two genetically determined color morphs are cited which correspond to a male's role in reproductive strategy. The red morph males may be harem owners, the yellow morph males may be satelite males or helpers in a red morph male's territory, and both morphs may form monogamous pairs. The authors note that "red morph males are more aggressive and patrol their territories more intensively than" yellow morph males. The color patterns are exhibited before the fish become territorial, at about six months old, after which time they are fixed for life.

I bring this up because it would seem that P. pulcher coloration and applied role in mating strategy are linked. So, male coloration within a particular colony may relate to the role played in mating strategy and social hierarchy and not to where the fish is from. A similar scenario has also been observed in P. sacrimontis.

Thank you.

Randall Kohn

 

[fisheads]

Hello Randall, sorry I was so long in responding to your last posting but the wife and I were up in the Great white north at an uncles igloo feeding the mosquitos. We came back Wednesday night only to have all the power go off Thursday and I had fish coming in from Nigeria!!!!!! I am glad to say for the most part everything survived their 72 hour ordeal. Lots of cool things in the shipment including Pel. "sacrimentis" with a valid location, Benitochromis from Lake Chad ( possibly guentheri) , and a bag of Pel. pulcher that is 2 very distinct types of Pelvivchromis! About a 1/3 of the tank look like Pel. pulcher form B type but the rest of the tank is full of bright gold kribensis! They look like little gold bars swimming in the tank and this is their fright pattern!! Very Awesome. The also show no black latteral line in their fright pattern so I am hoping this is a Pel. pulcher Form A type. They look too chunky to be P. Teaniatus and do not show the half red iris that I have seen in most P.teaniatus. What ever they are they are just drop dead gorgeous!!!!!
Thank you Randall for the information on the colour differences in locations of Pel. pulcher I have noticed this myself in the strains that I have been keeping but was unsure if this was a recesive gene or had something to do with male dominance. I have seen "Gold" males in my Cherry Reds and also in my Pel. pulcher Etiop River strain. I also get "Gold" females once in a while and have a very young one spawning right now. I have noticed that the gold males are much more timid than the normal/Red males and often never spawn with a female. I have not seen them help the dominant Red male with his harem yet but have had the Cherry red males spawn in Harems of one male and 3 females with gold males in the tank. In fact the young group with the "Gold" female has two cluches of babies and one clutch of eggs all in the same tank with 3 submissive males. The aggression is huge in the tank but the killis (Procatopus nototeania) make great dithers. They are surface feeders that don't like to eat from the bottom, and are active but not too fast for the Pel. pulcher females to chase away from their fry if they get too close.

Back to the colour issue. I understand that colour is not the best way to separate these fish but until everything that is wild comes in with a location this is the best way to identify the different locations so someone will not get the strains mixed up. The last thing I want is for the strains to get corupted because the start getting traded and sold as "Wild Kribs". When I use a colour on the name of a fish it is the dominant body colour on the male. I have found that female colouration is too unreliable in each location that I have kept. All my wild kribs have red bellys but I have found that the red belly of the male can be split into two groups Hearts and Streaks. The Hearts are males that show a large belly spot like the female when spwaning or guarding their territory. Both the P. pulcher Etiop River and the Pel. pulcher "Yellow" Nigeria are Hearts. The Streaks have red that starts at the front of the gill cover and covers the belly all the way to the start of the caudal peduncle. Some of my Cherry Reds have the red extend all the way to the base of the tail. This is way the are called Cherry Reds. You cannot mistake them for any other Pel. pulcher as soon as you see them. The Etiop River has an over all distinctive green body so that is why you see green after thier name. The Pel. pulcher Nigeria "yellow" males are all consistantly a light yellow with a gold gill cover so this is why the get the yellow after their name. I know in an ideal stituation I would be able to have locations with each fish and not have to use the colour behind each name but we have to start some where.
Of course with geneticly caused colour differences such as albinoism it is easy. Just call the fish an Albino. I have 3 colour types that I am working with right now out of my fish that are caused by recessive genes that I am hoping to fix as strains. A blck eyed albino (Blizzard Kribs), a 1/2 black Krib from my Cherry Reds(front half of the body red back half jet black), and a Lime green streaked krib from a aquarium strain. I usually stay away from Aquarium strains but this thing is stunning. The streak starts on the face and is in the shape of a candle flame while the rest of the body colour is a lime green. Tried taking photos but the flash keep washing out the green.
I do have photos of all my kribs now and will get them on the web so everyone can see and I am hoping to have pictures of the new arrivals by next weekend after they have had time to settle down.