ID Please

[Arcadianred]

Hi All,

If anyone can help with a positive ID for the attached I would be very grateful. The fish were ordered and brought in as Apist sp bluktkeil. I picked them up and they looked somewhere near to what I had expected and I have been unable to look at them properly until today. As you can see they do not look like Blutkeil - as i was desparate for them to be :frown: (the caudal spot gives it away a little!). Apologies for the picture quality as I have just treated with Flubenol and this seems to have lightened/misted everything.

The fish have a very dark outline (almost black) to every fin especially the dorsal with a fine red edging. The colouring around the face is quite a bright blue with most being below the eye and on the gill cover. There appeared to be some red around the gill cover when I picked them up but this is now not evident at all.

Any help much appreciated as I feel a bit of a fool right now

Many Thanks

Mark

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fish1.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fish2.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fish3.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fish4.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fish5.jpg

 

[Mike Wise]

Wow, Mark, you have me stumped! The fish show a pertensis- or even some brevis-group-like body shape, but they do not show any lateral spot. That means that the fish should belong to the regani-group. The broad lateral band is more often seen in regani- and Xing-complex species, but I can't positively say that the fish even belong there. Is there any chance of photographs of the fish in their fright pattern? Have you any idea where the fish were collected? Blutkehl/Cutthroat is only found in the upper Río Orinoco, where regani-group fish do not occur.

 

[Arcadianred]

Thanks for looking Mike. I have done my best to get a varied set of pics this time. One of the males I got (2m and 2F) shows a more yellow hue to the body occassionally as one of the pic shows. The range of different colour/mood patterns with this apisto varies that much they look totally different fish to me. I hope I have caught the height of the dorsal sufficiently as well. Anyway here goes.
Oh by the way, the fish were via a local LFS and were obtained via Singapore so i don't have any collection info - I could go back and ask if this would help.
Many Thanks

Mark

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fishy1.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fishy2.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fishy3.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fishy4.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fishy5.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Fishy6.jpg

 

[Microman]

Got me stumped too Mark...

As Mike says they show pertensis like body shape with no visible lateral blotches in neutral mood. The slight gap between lateral band and the slightly square caudal spot reminds me of
A sp "Putzer/Cleaner" A162 "Sao Gabriel" from the pertensis group.

I noticed that your Singapore list has A sp "Sao Gabriel" listed. Could this have been erraneously sent instead of Blutkehl?

Im sure Mike will put us right.....
Would be ok if it was Putzer as its not a species ive kept but knowing our luck it aint....
Mark...

 

[Arcadianred]

Hi Mark,

I had looked at the putzer and there are similarities, at times there are also similarities with velifera as well. I think the pictures in fright patterns may be a bit clue to Mike but they haven't cleared anything for an amateur like me.

I know these things happen but I'm not too happy at the moment. Anyway fingers crossed that they are something out of the ordinary. I suppose the mix up with the Sao Gabriel is possible but our fish were the only Apistos on the order for the LFS (although these will have been taken from a central delivery point in this country).

Crossed fingers

Mark

PS I agree on the our luck bit!

 

[Mike Wise]

I have been looking at all of the photos again. They all look like juveniles right now. The fish in fright pattern (in net) are quite helpful. I tend to agree with Mark. It looks like a pertenis-group species, but I don't believe it is Putzer (aka A. sp. aff. uaupesi São Gabriel). Based on the dark spotting on the abdomen, I think that you have either A. velifera or A. sp. Erdfresser/Earth-eater). I belive that the fish in the net is a juvenile male. Its fins are not yet developed. Give them all about 2 months. By then the fins will be grown out and we can see the shape of the dorsal and caudal fins.

 

[Microman]

Cheers Mike...
Are they not A sp "Putzer" because they do not show the scales above the lateral band edged in dark grey and the feint elongated lateral blotches? I find it very helpful to know why an ID isnt correct for future reference.....

I too thought Velifera at first but then i thought in one of the pics that i could clearly see a double tipped caudal developing... Is this the case Mark or is it just the camera angle.

I personally hope they aint velifera but sp Erdfresser is one species i wouldnt mind in my tanks. Fingers crossed its the latter.....
We will soon get the pics up again when they mature.
Mark...

 

[Arcadianred]

Many thanks Mike for your help.

I sure hope it is erdfresser rather than velifera. Do you think the caudal in a couple of the pics indicates a twin tip as Mark does? I'm still unsure about the tips of fins, as in display they show a very dark almost black outline with red only on the very end - is this of any relevance or is it just because they are juveniles?

Thanks again

Mark


Hi Mark,

I think I have done nothing but look through a couple of pages of Datz over the last couple of days. I am convinced that it is pertensis complex as Mike says. I had looked at velifera and there are obvious similarities but I was still undecided because of the shape of the caudal and the overall body shape seems more elongated to me.

In the picture you are referring to the camera flatters the development of the double tipped caudal a little but I have always believed that this was a fish with such a caudal. The general shape (flattened end rather than well rounded) does not, I believe, look like the typical velifera shape. I think if erdfresser it is more likely to be A155. Also the females look very little like the velifera but look very similar to those on Pg 71 of Datz. Having said this I will be very interested on Mikes thoughts concerning why he has discounted Putzer. It's a shame you don't live closer!!

Mark

 

[Mike Wise]

Personally, I think the fish are too young to identify with certainty. The developing lyretail seen on the photos appears to be just the fish cupping the tail, which makes it look like it has a 2 lobes instead of a round tail. As for colors in apistos, I generally ignore them because so many species are polychromatic. I guess I discounted A. sp. Putzer because I see well developed rows of spots on abdomin of the fish (in the net). These are not typically seen on Putzer. Right now I lean toward A. velifera only because they look more like the half-grown specimen pictured in DATZ (p. 75, bottom left). A. sp. Erdfresser comes from the Rio Purus which is not commonly collected. If they were my fish, I would wait a few month until the are more filled out and fins are developed.

 

[Arcadianred]

Thanks again for your reply Mike.

I still have my doubts about Velifera as I'm convinced that the caudal will develop twin tips, it just doesn't look as rounded as in the stereotypical velifera. Anyway time will tell as you say. After looking at them again tonight I am going to hunt out a good picture of Velifera without their fright markings for comparison.

Cheers

Mark

 

[Mike Wise]

See: http://rva.jp/apisto/vierstreifen.html for photos of young, recently imported A. velifera.

 

[Arcadianred]

Thanks yet again Mike

Mark

 

[Arcadianred]

Hi,

An update. Unfortunately I lost 2 of the original 4 fish I got and was keeping my fingers crossed for a pair. Anyway the finger crossing paid off as they spwned before Christmas. I am still unsure they are Velifera as the original pics were mainly of the female (I know this now!) which we had originally thought to be a juvenile male. The male who was tiny when I took the first pics has now grown and is, I think, starting to show tips to his caudal (especially the top). Are there any further ideas on the positive ID or do the attached pics confirm Velifera?

Many Thanks

Mark

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Female1.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Female2.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Male1-1.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Male2.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Male3.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Male4.jpg
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Male1bigger.jpg

 

[Rolo]

Hi,

According to these pictures, I would guess A. sp. Putzer instead of A. velifera.

regards,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

Putzer is a good possibility. My only problem is that the male shows a serrated dorsal fin. Both A. velifera & Putzer should have an even topped sail-like dorsal fin. Perhaps it is because it is still young and the dorsal fin is not fully developed. For now, I would hesitate to identify the fish. Is there any chance of getting larger photos of the fish?

 

[Arcadianred]

Hi Mike,

I have added a slightly larger version of one of the photos. If this is no good I will try to get a better close up tonight.

Many Thanks

Mark

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u104/Arcadianred/Male1bigger.jpg

 

[Mike Wise]

If this fish were 2 - 2½" long (5 - 6 cm), then I would think it was A. sp. Erdfresser/Earth-eater (A154). Since it is still young, I would wait until the dorsal completely develops. If it develops a completely fused dorsal fin (no pointed dorsal fin spines (except the first spine), then I agree with Rolo that it is A. sp. Putzer/Cleaner.

 

[Arcadianred]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your expertise again. I'll give it a bit more time and post post again. To be honest the spawning took me a bit by surprise as I had got the sexing wrong. But the presence of about 30 fry put the record straight!

Many Thanks again for your help

Mark

 

[Arcadianred]

Bit of an update. This is the male and it is definitely Putzer. The dorsal has developed and only the fron spine protrudes. Also the lyrate tail has developed nicely. Apologies not the best of pictures.

Mark

 

[Mike Wise]

I think that Rolo was right on this one. It now looks like A. sp. Putzer/Cleaner to me.