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Help, dead rams

clarob

New Member
Messages
5
Hi, bought my first dwarf cichlids 6 weeks ago: 1 male and 2 female mikrogeophagus ramirezi. Had them in a 65 litre community tank with rasboras, tetras and cherry barbs with lots of plants. Water quality is very good; soft and slightly acidic.

I found the male a couple of mornings ago at the bottom of the tank 'panting'. I spoke to my trusted lfs and they said he had a common viral infection and he wasn't going to make it and now I have lost a female. Can't find any information on this on the web, please could you point me at something. Also I want to try again, is there anything I can do to the tank to get rid of the infection, the rest of the fish are fine? Anything I can do to sent the tank up better (I have had some trouble with algae on the water surface)?

Thank-you, Robert
 

regani

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
429
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Most infections in fish are due to poor water quality which affects the immune system of the fish allowing infections to take hold.
Have you measured ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in your tank? Do you know what the conductivity/TDS is?
The surface scum/algae is usually a sign of too many nutrients in the water, generally due to overfeeding or too much fertiliser.
Try to get some of the above water values, if you don't have the test kits, most pet shops will test the water for you. To help the fish do 30-50% water changes with aged/dechlorinated water every day for the next few days, this will help the other fish fend off the infection.
Without proper diagnosis medications will likely do more harm then good for stressed fish.
 

clarob

New Member
Messages
5
Hi, thanks for the reply.

I have an RO/DI unit, so the water I use is RO water re-mineralised.

The current params I measure are:
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
ph: 6.6
DH: < 4
KH: < 4
Temp: 25

I have an ammonia test kit, but hardly use it as I haven't measured any for months. I have a TDS meter and will check tonight.

I have been told that the surface algae might be due to oily deposits left by the frozen blood worms I've been feeding, alternating with TetraMin.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Most infections in fish are due to poor water quality which affects the immune system of the fish allowing infections to take hold.
Often the case. Rams are a particular problem, partially because a lot of the stock is really poor quality and all ready has internal infections, parasites etc. and partially because they need clean, warm soft water.
frozen blood worms I've been feeding
A lot of us don't use frozen Blood-worms because of concerns about their quality, live Blood-worms are fine.
<http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/help-with-viejita-gold.13211/>
<http://apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-think-bloodworms-are-the-culprit.4768/>

cheers Darrel
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Agree with Darrell they could have been infected (and doomed) before you got them - VERY common with farmed rams and dwarf gouramis especially. Look for a hobbyist breeder and try to get some tank-raised ones. Could be a bacterial or protozoan infection too - not necessarily a virus.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Everyone has given you good advice. I also suggest that you keep Rams warmer than most other aquarium fish, around 23°C/84°F. Lower temperatures mean a lower metabolism and a lower immune response.
 

henkh

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
81
Location
Netherlands
The 23 degrees celsius is to cold fr rams but possible conversion error? Need minimal 26/27 degrees but preferable 28. You speak that water is very good. How certain are you? For 65liter you have a pretty large amount of fish. How often do you water changes? And you use remineralized RO water. How can your pH can be in the 6 values? RO has 7.0 (neutral) With adding minerals i would expect higher values.

I keep rams in larger tanks with good biological filtration and do waterchanges about 4 times a week. Besides the already posted advice and experiences, they are extremely sensitive for changes in waterquality. And besides bloodworms (better not feed it to rams) they are also sensitive for to much food. They can eat a lot and it looks they are always hungry, but careful feeding. Preferable more times a day little food, preferable live food or frozen.
 

clarob

New Member
Messages
5
Thank-you for all the advice.

I use Tropic Marin Re-Mineral, but only roughly a third of the amount they suggest. I have a chunk of bog wood in the tank. Perhaps that combination keeps the ph below 7?

I have 7 Hengeli's rasboras (Trigonostigma hengeli) and 5 green neon tetra (Paracheirodon simulans) all of which are pretty small. I have 3 cherry barbs (<2cm) and 3 otocinclus.

I have a Fluval U2 filter. I do a 10 litre water change at least every week and sometimes twice. I started using RO when I got a home unit ready to keep marines, because my tap water has 50ppm nitrate.

From what you've been saying, I have probably been over feeding a bit.

What combination of food would you suggest for rams? At one stage I was using some frozen brine shrimp as well.

Many thanks

Robert
 

clarob

New Member
Messages
5
TDS is 155, other readings are still the same as above.

I would like to get my tank in good shape so that I can try again at some point. What would you say the ideal parameters are? Do I need to be measuring something else? Given that I have RO water available, would you recommend some other way of preparing water (my tap water is hard with quite high nitrates)?

Thank-you for all your help.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I would like to get my tank in good shape so that I can try again at some point. What would you say the ideal parameters are? Do I need to be measuring something else?
I'm not sure you've done a lot wrong, my suspicion would be that it was the quality of the fish. If you can I'd follow Gerald's suggestion.
Look for a hobbyist breeder and try to get some tank-raised ones
One of the best ways of maintaining water quality is to have a planted tank, and you already have this.

Also have a look at Bob Wiltshire's web site, it is is full of good advice: I'd start with the care section, it covers water, food etc <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php>, Rams <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Ram_Cichlid_Mikrogeophagus_ramirezi.php> and breeding <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Breeding_Blue_Rams.php>

You could reduce the addition of "Tropic Marin Re-Mineral", I'd probably aim for about 70ppm TDS, and not worry about measuring anything else. I like some leaf litter in the tanks, you can use Oak etc or buy Indian Almond leaves.
What combination of food would you suggest for rams? At one stage I was using some frozen brine shrimp as well.
Most of us tend to feed our fish a lot of live food, BBS is probably best, but I use a combination of Banana/Grindal/Red worms, Daphnia and various Mosquito larvae.

If you are in the UK? I can send you starter cultures for the cost of the postage.

For dry food I use the de-capsulated Brine Shrimp or Arctic Copepods and Astax Red crumb all from "TA Aquaculture".

cheers Darrel
 

henkh

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
81
Location
Netherlands
I would recommend use only the RO water without additions. Then you have a good starting point. I always have a tank full of RO water with airstone and pump to circulate to get it full of oxygen as possible. pH is neutral and tds is low (appr 50 max but with very good RO installation maybe lower).

For lowering pH f.e. filtration over peat, adding oak and/or almond leaves. (REAL!) Bogwood does lower pH but not for ever. If the piece is old then there is no effect anymore. But, an "old" tank contains all kinds of pH lowering mechanisms. My english is not so good i can explain that. And i agree with previous posters that the possibilty that you had bad species is obvious. And of course, everyone can make mistakes or miss judgements but that is part of the game. We all make/made mistakes. Pitty for the living species but we are willing to learn from our mistakes otherwise we wouldnt be member of this great forum.
 

clarob

New Member
Messages
5
Sorry I haven't replied sooner - work has been manic. Thank-you for all the advice and offers of help. It looks like my other female is going to be OK and her tank mates are all fine.

Sounds like live food is the way to go, I'm sure my yellow clown goby (I have a new nano marine tank) would like it too :)

I'm slowly going to adjust the temperature up and the TDS down and get some leaf litter. Then I assume I could avertise on here to try and get some healthy rams?
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
703
Location
Clarkston, WA
I strongly recommend that all new fish, especially Rams, be subjected to two or three weeks in a quarantine tank.
Don't be afraid to keep them as warm as 88*F/~31*C.
Feed them live foods daily. Newly hatched brine shrimp will do nicely.
 

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