Dutch Rams - sexing

[Minders]

I am trying to learn about Ram behaviour. Any help is appreciated.

I have a pair of Dutch bred Rams, which are quite difficult to sex. We spent a long time trying to pick a male/female pair, but I'm not really sure what I should be looking for now they're in my tank. I can tell you that one is slightly smaller than the other and has quite long belly fins (visibly longer than the other one's). However, if you are looking for that one long spine on the dorsal fin, the other one seems to have a slight edge over the one with the long fins (though there's not a lot in it).

When they were first put in the tank, they seemed to sort of nudge each other on the sides - kinda bounce off each other with their noses. But that seems to have stopped now. But you do sometimes see, when one approaches the other, one will chase the other away.

This morning I couldn't find the slightly larger one, and eventually spotted it nestled into a little cave, quite content. He/she doesn't look distressed or anything, though obviously I will keep a close eye.

They've been in my tank about 2 weeks now, and have gone through one water change in that time (one had just been done when they intially went in). My pH is around 7.6-7.8, and there is no trace of ammonia, etc, in the water. They didn't even come out in white spot/Ick when they made the transfer. They seem very happy, peaceful fish, with good appetites.

If anyone can help me understand their behaviour, I would very much appreciate any insight. Thanks in advance.

 

[2la]

This thread:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2060

features wild rams, but pretty much all the same principles apply.

 

[Minders]

Thanks for the info, and for the link to that site. I am as much into my plants as my fish, and that looks like another good forum for me to keep in touch with as I have a lot stuff to learn about plants in the aquarium too.

As far as the lateral spots go, I'm not sure they ever look that dark on my fish. I've attached a picture of my tank with one of my Rams taking centre stage. It's not the clearest of pictures, and I don't know if it'll be any help at all, but, here it is anyway.

(Note: I've viewed this on the board and the image doesn't show up, but if you paste the URL into your browser, it should take you to the image that way)

 

[2la]

Both fish look male to me, but a clearer pic would help confirm.

 

[Randall]

Sexing Microgeophagus ramirezi

Dear Minders,

It's a little difficult to tell from the photo, but the fish in the forefront is a male, and the one to the right also looks like a male.

Male M. ramirezi will usually exhibit one to three extended hard dorsal rays, more prominent pelvic fin extentions, a reddish snout and a solid black blotch on the flanks. Females will generally exhibit a rounder pinkish belly and some iridescent blue points or spots in the black blotch on the flanks.

For breeding, you may need to soften your water a bit resulting in a pH below 7.0.

The "nudging" you describe sounds like some healthy territorial aggession behavior and is to be expected.

Good luck with them.

All the best,

Randall Kohn

 

[Minders]

Hi... I've got yet another question for you regarding the same two Rams. It's a behaviour I'm observing at the moment and wondered what you thought...

With reference to the above picture (well, the URL for the pic), the one in the foreground, it seems to be the general opinion by those who've looked at that picture that the one in the foreground is a male. Well, that fish is now exhibiting a behaviour that I am intrigued by, and wondered if it meant anything specific or if it's just "what they do". The only reason I'm re-questioning their sex is because they're Dutch Rams and I was told it's difficult to sex them due to the hormones used in breeding making them both exhibit similar external characteristics (??).

"He's" found a nice little overhang/cave type area under a piece of bogwood. He's staying under there a lot, and moving all the sand away from the bottom below him to create a little "pit" in which he sits. Every now and again he comes out and if the other Ram (the smaller of the two) is nearby, he chases him to the far end of the tank, eventually returning to his little cave sand pit thing and settling down again. Even when I'm feeding, he doesn't seem too bothered. I fed bloodworms last night. The smaller Ram was eating from my fingers as usual, but the bigger one stayed under his log until well after I'd finished, and maybe found one or two worms that had settled, but I can't be sure because I didn't actually see him eat.

I was wondering, is this just normal patterned behaviour, or is it a characteristic of either a male or female who thinks they want to breed? I know that at 7.8, my pH is higher than ideal for breeding Rams, but I get so confused when I see this sort of thing happening. Help? :roll:

 

[Randall]

Microgeophagus ramiriezi Behavior

Dear Minders,

I don't' know whether the Dutch generally utilize hormones when breeding their rams or not. I am not familiar with such a practice among Dutch breeders. Should you know any Dutch hobbyists, it should be quite easy for you to find out.

The behavior that you describe in your last post sounds more like the territorial aggression of a dominant male than it does breeding behavior. Rams are biparental, pair bonding open substrate spawners that will display intense courtship behavior prior to spawning.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Minders]

Aaahh... thanks for that. It's all learning, right? I think it was the pit digging that caught my eye. I've not seen that before. I think you guys are right. I must have two males.

What's the best way to redress the balance? I have a 4ft tank. I'm not sure that's big enough for more than one pair, so what would be the best way to introduce a female now, or is it necessary? Is it possible to have two pairs? Would I need to rehome the less dominant male first? Should I just leave it alone?

I'm not really that worried if they breed or not, but I do like to make sure my animals have a natural "mate" if it's appropriate. If having two males is more like to cause stress in the long term, then I'd like to address it now before it became a problem (if indeed it would). It's debatable whether my tank would inspire a pair to breed (as, at 7.8 my pH is a little high for this) but if just having the interaction of a male/female pair is a more healthy situation, then I feel it's important to accommodate that, if possible.

Any thoughts? What's the best thing to do? I realise it's a matter of personal opinion, but all thoughts and points of view are welcome.

 

[Randall]

Microgeophagus ramirezi Pairs

Dear Minders,

If your tank is 4 feet long, it is probably 55 gallons or more. With a tank that size, I don't think you need to worry about housing two pairs of M. ramirezi, especially if you also have some dither fish (tetras, pencil fish, etc.) in the tank.

M. ramirezi are warm water loving fish that do well in about 80 degress F. For general husbandry, I keep my water at 79 degrees F. Given your high pH, if they pair up and spawn, the eggs will probably not be viable. For that, your water would need to be considerably softer and the pH in the acidic range.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Minders]

Yes there are plenty of "dither" fish in the tank too. 6x Lemon tetras, 6 x Golden Pencilfish, 5 x Marbelled Hatchefish, 6 x Ottocinclus, 3 x Corys, 6 x Emporer tetras, 5 x Glow-lite tetras.

Plus, I am in the processing of redesigning the inside of the tank, which will result in more plants and more places to tuck away into.

It's all good! 8)