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Can I keep a pair of Borrelli with an unpaired male Apistogramma Iniridae?

Soonie

New Member
Messages
9
All agassizii-complex species and forms are "somewhat similar" ;) However, your fish are A. sp. Tefe, a different species than A. agassizii, not just a colorform or population of them. You can distinguish A. sp. Tefe from all other agassizii-complex species by means on the zigzag stripes along the body.
Ohhh that's interesting. I didn't know there was a difference since my lfs labeled them as both "agassizii tefe" so I assumed that tefe was just a color variant. Might sound ignorant, but I still can't see the zigzag lines that people talk about. Do you by any chance have pictures to show the difference? I might have to look at my fish again tomorrow to see if I can see it in person.
 

Frank Hättich

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
387
Location
Germany
Ohhh that's interesting. I didn't know there was a difference since my lfs labeled them as both "agassizii tefe" so I assumed that tefe was just a color variant. Might sound ignorant, but I still can't see the zigzag lines that people talk about. Do you by any chance have pictures to show the difference? I might have to look at my fish again tomorrow to see if I can see it in person.
The zigzag stripes are not always (perfectly) zigzag and they are not always shown either (markings and coloration of Apistos are highly mood dependent). I have tried to indicate them in one of your photos:

20220509_151706.jpg


And here is a photo where they can be seen more clearly (the fish is wrongly named A. agassizii "Tefe" too): https://www.picfair.com/pics/015366281-agassizi-s-dwarf-cichlid-from-tefe
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
I didn't know there was a difference since my lfs labeled them as both "agassizii tefe"
Except the store is really specialized on dwarf cichlids and the people know what they're doing, NEVER assume the tradenames to be correct. Generally, tradenames are inconsistent and problematic because every wholesaler, retailer or breeder can call their fish whatever they want beyond the scientific binomial name. Meaning any parts of a name in " " or after a sp./cf. can be made up.
Just as an example: By now I have counted 8 different names for what most people know as Apistogramma cacatuoides "Double Red", internationally.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
OK so I think I know the subspecies now, its Cf. Agassizii Netz, the likeness is rather obvious to my fish, anyone have care info for Netz?
1652190737792.png

Above : Apistogramma Cf. Agassizii Netz

1652193345406.jpeg
Above : My apisto
 

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MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
anyone have care info for Netz?
Like any blackwater Apistogramma. There are few differences of the requirements between most the Apistogramma species. Most differences are concerning water parameters and whether they are best kept solo, in pairs or groups. Food, tank structure, substrate and decorations are pretty much the same for all.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
428
Location
San Francisco
Agassizii forms are highly polychromatic, so I'm not certain it can be positively ID'd without knowing it (or its ancestors) was collected from Alenquer. So the "cf" is appropriate.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
Like any blackwater Apistogramma. There are few differences of the requirements between most the Apistogramma species. Most differences are concerning water parameters and whether they are best kept solo, in pairs or groups. Food, tank structure, substrate and decorations are pretty much the same for all.
So, as a final question, do you think that the tank is ok for a pair of A. Borellii, with minor modifications (read : fish sandbox). I do really want to house a borellii pair in the tank later on.
 

Frank Hättich

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
387
Location
Germany
OK so I think I know the subspecies now, its Cf. Agassizii Netz, the likeness is rather obvious to my fish
To me your fish doesn't show the typical net-like pattern, formed by the dark scale-edges, as known from the agassizii-Netz forms. Imo your fish just shows dark anterior edges of the scales which form an irregular pattern due to the deformation of many of the scales - the latter often is a sign of hybridization.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
To me your fish doesn't show the typical net-like pattern, formed by the dark scale-edges, as known from the agassizii-Netz forms. Imo your fish just shows dark anterior edges of the scales which form an irregular pattern due to the deformation of many of the scales - the latter often is a sign of hybridization.
Yaaaay hybrid subspecies
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,740
Location
Germany
To me your fish doesn't show the typical net-like pattern, formed by the dark scale-edges, as known from the agassizii-Netz forms. Imo your fish just shows dark anterior edges of the scales which form an irregular pattern due to the deformation of many of the scales - the latter often is a sign of hybridization.
Agassizii forms are highly polychromatic, so I'm not certain it can be positively ID'd without knowing it (or its ancestors) was collected from Alenquer. So the "cf" is appropriate.
I am putting myself in this queue. I am also sceptical of the ID.

And while I'm at it: Many of the pictures do have copyright. They may be linked but not posted. Just as a reminder.

So, as a final question, do you think that the tank is ok for a pair of A. Borellii, with minor modifications (read : fish sandbox). I do really want to house a borellii pair in the tank later on.
You are talking of the tank you posted first, right? I don't like to be that blunt, but... I'd completely redo the tank before even getting them. The sandbox is just a temporary solution for the fish you already have.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
I am putting myself in this queue. I am also sceptical of the ID.

And while I'm at it: Many of the pictures do have copyright. They may be linked but not posted. Just as a reminder.


You are talking of the tank you posted first, right? I don't like to be that blunt, but... I'd completely redo the tank before even getting them. The sandbox is just a temporary solution for the fish you already have.
1. what are your main problems with my tank? just wondering.
2. sorry about posting the picks, didn't know about the no copyrighted stuff rule.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
I do have 1 question, does peat moss lower GH, Im going to setup the 10 gall and I want definite answers, It would have to work with a sponge filter too, so I rly want to know if thats viable, otherwise i'll use rainwater.
 

Aquaticloch

Active Member
Messages
127
Location
Canada eh
I think the problems Mac Z has with your tank are what i outlined in the first reply, aside from blackwater.
1. Substrate
2. Lack of sight barriers
3. Lack of natural materials (driftwood, leaf litter)
4. gourami

I think at some point all of us make mistakes regarding copyright, just remember to always site images and sources
 

Soonie

New Member
Messages
9
I do have 1 question, does peat moss lower GH, Im going to setup the 10 gall and I want definite answers, It would have to work with a sponge filter too, so I rly want to know if thats viable, otherwise i'll use rainwater.
I don't have actual peat moss, but I just put in peat granules by fluval into my tank. I currently have 7 for both kH/gh and I'll retest today and give an update if that helps.

Edit. Just realized you said sponge filter. Not sure if this would apply then because I use a mesh bag in my filter to hold the peat granules.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
I think the problems Mac Z has with your tank are what i outlined in the first reply, aside from blackwater.
1. Substrate
2. Lack of sight barriers
3. Lack of natural materials (driftwood, leaf litter)
4. gourami

I think at some point all of us make mistakes regarding copyright, just remember to always site images and sources
Does the substrate really matter for borellii if I add a sandbox?
And about natural materials, how important are they I don't intend to breed the pair, I just think it will be nicer with 2 apistos. What are your recommendations for dealing with the gourami, I'll take the apistos over larry anyday of the year, I got him from a petsmart, don't know if they accept returns.
 

Aquaticloch

Active Member
Messages
127
Location
Canada eh
Does the substrate really matter for borellii if I add a sandbox?
This information has been pointed out and addressed in multiple other replies.

Sandboxes are temporary solutions, I would definitely recommend having a full sand substrate instead of the pea gravel and sand, when the two substrate inevitably mix youll end up with a constant chore of seperating the two. Just better to completely change to sand, I tried making a sandbox a while ago in one of my tanks and i regret it. and will have to end up sieving sand for a few days.

And about natural materials, how important are they I don't intend to breed the pair, I just think it will be nicer with 2 apistos.
I personally dislike artificial decor because of the coatings and the rough edges which come with them. You dont have to have driftwood, but your aquarium needs many more sight blocks and places to hide, driftwood offers plenty of these hides. More plants would also be better even if not breeding, the fish will chase eachother around the aquarium. You just need a lot more materials in the tank for them to be happy, and having plants and driftwood are the two best ways to do so.

You can return the gourami, if they dont accept returns try to trade with a hobbiest for plants or sell it on a online marketplace to a knowledgeable fishkeeper.
 

Memeboi

Member
Messages
82
It is rather unfeasible to change out the substrate, and I also really don't think it's a good idea, very simply.
I could definitely get more plants however, any recommendations? , Im definitely going to grow more hornwort though.
I could always get more wood from the felled birch branch in my backyard, it hasn't been dead long though.
I can't really move the decoration in the middle since the amazon sword (miraculously) has grown its roots INTO THE SUBSTRATE, from up there, I put it there since my gourami actually got stuck there (i got him out) and had a bit of fin damage from it.
I would like to note that the tank has had fish for only a bit less than a month now, with the plants (except the hornwort) being added the same day (I originally just wanted hornwort, then got plant mania in the store), so they will grow out a lot more.
 

Aquaticloch

Active Member
Messages
127
Location
Canada eh
It is rather unfeasible to change out the substrate, and I also really don't think it's a good idea, very simply.
Everyone who has replied to this thread has told you otherwise, as well as the fact that there is countless research on keeping apistos with sand.

If your gourami has gotten fin damage from artificial decor in your aquarium, its likely the same will happen to your apistos, seeing as they are much more boisterous and curious generally.
 

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Prontodelivery wrote on Apistoguy52's profile.
Do you still have the F1 Ivanacara adoketa “red” from the Rio Icana, interested in getting 2 Pairs.
mikishuhoo wrote on Apistoguy52's profile.
Hi,

Do you still have Apistogramma diplotaenia pairs available to sell? Please advise. Thanks.

Kenny
I'm clueless. If I say something you can safely ignore it.
Apistomaster wrote on anewbie's profile.
I see that The Wet Spot Tropical Fish currently has the fire red A. agassizi you are looking for. Here is the link:
I've always had good experiences buying from them on line.
Hallo,
I am Hanzle from Holland and keep apistoos for 40 years. Had my own aquarium shop from 1984 till 1988. Always s great fan from apistoos and hyphessobrycon which is s great combination in a Community Aquarium. Perhaps.....in the near future I start breeding apistoos again. Have a 400 liters Community aquarium for hyphessobrycon wadai and apistogramma biteaniata.
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