Apistos Wigglers QUestion

[archangelvk]

So I bought a pair of Apisto Borellii for my 23G tank. The ONLY other inhabitants are 2 broze cories, 6 red cherry shrimp and 3 Amano Shrimp. Upon receiving the Apisto's They got ich so I jacked up the heat to 32C/89F. They started getting better and nothing in the tank died. Not only did the Apisto's get better but the female laid eggs in the cave. 2 Days later the eggs hatched and I had around 20 Wigglers. The following two days I noticed that the wigglers started shrinking in numbers and today all of them were gone. Eaten by their mother I suppose. Now its her first batch of eggs and I was just wondering if its common for the mother to eat her first batch of wigglers? or did they die of the hot temperature? I never reduced the heat cuz I thought, if they were going to spawn and hatch at that heat, why change anything? Im pretty bummed about them all dying any clues as to why they did? BTW I didnt use chemicals to destroy the ich once I saw that there were eggs.

 

[boofeng]

Sometimes the mothers move the wigglers to another site.

High temps aren't so good for another reason though - the eggs and wigglers develop and hatch very fast, and are small when they become free swimming fry. Which makes them hard to feed

 

[Mike Wise]

At that temp any fry that survive will be males. Sex determination in apistos is primarily temperature dependent. Since we have no idea of what your tank and feeding regimen are it's hard to say what caused the death of the fry.

 

[archangelvk]

At that temp any fry that survive will be males. Sex determination in apistos is primarily temperature dependent. Since we have no idea of what your tank and feeding regimen are it's hard to say what caused the death of the fry.

Cool I didnt know temp determines sex. The 23G tank that they are kept in has a 30% water change each week. Ive never used RO water or anything and just de-chlorinate it with prime. As for feeding, I feed the tank 3 times a day. First thing in the morning when I wake up with Omega one flakes. Once when I come home from work with North Fin Cichlid pellets OR frozen blood worms/brine shrimp and once in the evening with frozen blood worms or brine shrimp.

 

[Mike Wise]

What did you feed the fry? Also this is a community tank so I would expect you to lose a large number of fry even if everything else is good.

 

[archangelvk]

What did you feed the fry? Also this is a community tank so I would expect you to lose a large number of fry even if everything else is good.

They didnt make it to the fry/free swimming stage. They were wigglers only before they were eaten by their mother. Am I suppose to feed wigglers? If I did then I guess Im the cause of death since I didnt feed them anything. From reading on the net, I thought they had a yolk sack that they consume first and was only to be fed when they were free swimming? My tank is technically a community tank since there are other fish but 23G for the pair of Apisto and 2 bronze cory along with a total of 9 shrimp seems plenty of space to me?

 

[Mike Wise]

Sorry, my bad. I was thinking of freeswimming fry. If you have ever read much here you probably have read my mantra: a community tank is not a breeding tank. Anyway, corys and other bottom-dwelling fish can stress brooding females. It's better for them to eat their own spawn and get some nutrition out of it than to allow some other fish to eat them.

 

[archangelvk]

Sorry, my bad. I was thinking of freeswimming fry. If you have ever read much here you probably have read my mantra: a community tank is not a breeding tank. Anyway, corys and other bottom-dwelling fish can stress brooding females. It's better for them to eat their own spawn and get some nutrition out of it than to allow some other fish to eat them.

Ive never read your article about community tanks not being a breeding tank. I just found this site the day I joined which was a few days ago. If you'd like to point in in the direction of your article Id love to read it. Maybe I'll remove the 2 bronze cories. Would the 9 cherry shrimp be considered a threat as well?

 

[Mike Wise]

It not an article, it's more of a statement. You'll find it in many posts where people are unhappy that they can't get their apistos to successfully breed in a community situation. Your cherry shrimp probably won't be a threat. On the other hand shrimp are a part of most apistos' diet. Your borellii probably won't bother mature shrimp, but will gladly eat baby shrimp - and even adult shrimp if they find them between molts, when their exoskeletons haven't hardened.

 

[archangelvk]

It not an article, it's more of a statement. You'll find it in many posts where people are unhappy that they can't get their apistos to successfully breed in a community situation. Your cherry shrimp probably won't be a threat. On the other hand shrimp are a part of most apistos' diet. Your borellii probably won't bother mature shrimp, but will gladly eat baby shrimp - and even adult shrimp if they find them between molts, when their exoskeletons haven't hardened.

Perfect ! Ill remove the 2 cories. Do you recommend me moving the male as well after the eggs have been fertilized? or so she has all 23G to herself or is it okay just to have the two of them?

 

[gerald]

Usually leaving both parents in with fry works fine. But keep watch; with some pairs one or the other parent takes over (usually female) and drives the other parent away. Be ready to intervene if one is getting chased too much.

 

[archangelvk]

Usually leaving both parents in with fry works fine. But keep watch; with some pairs one or the other parent takes over (usually female) and drives the other parent away. Be ready to intervene if one is getting chased too much.

A few questions for you or anyone else after reading your comment....
1) I have a pair of Apisto in a 23G. WOuld it be a good or bad idea to add another pair if they were the only fish in the tank? or is this not enough space?

2) If she keeps eating her young would it be a good idea to draw her out of the cave where she lays her eggs and then put a mesh over the enterance to prevent her from gaining access so they can have a chance to survive? I dont have another tank to artificially hatch the eggs

Thanks

 

[rappaz]

Well, if you want to breed i think a 23G is too small for two pairs, they will stress one each other and anyone will probably breed succesfully. On the other hand, i think that putting a mesh over the entrance of the cave when the eggs haven't hatch yet could make that them didn't hatch succesfully because of they could get infected by fungus or could be repudiated by the mom

I think that the better way is to keep the pair alone in a breeding tank and let them learn how to breed by themselves. With a little bit of patience you will enjoy a lot with the pair.

sorry for my bad english.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

2) If she keeps eating her young would it be a good idea to draw her out of the cave where she lays her eggs and then put a mesh over the enterance to prevent her from gaining access so they can have a chance to survive? I dont have another tank to artificially hatch the eggs

I've never attempted to artificially raise eggs, but the female needs to tend the eggs for them to hatch.

cheers Darrel

 

[Tetranerd]

In my opinion the breeding process is biological, and if there is anything that the parent doesn’t feel is right for the fry to prosper, then the parents will consume the fry to regain the energy they have put into creating offspring. It takes a great deal of energy to produce offspring and more to make sure enough survive to justify the energies used in the process.
So not enough food for fry, poor water quality, predators, or any other stresses may convince parents to wait until conditions are perfect.
So with fishkeepers putting their hands in the tank a lot, this can stress parents. Too many other distractions in the tank may cause same reaction.

Seems that many hobbyist want to keep a fish in a community setting to watch it behave and interact with other fish, but are disappointed when the fish that spawn readily for some people do nothing in their community tank. I fall into the purists category when it comes to breeding fish, species only tanks, or tanks with a few appropriate dither fish. Less distractions to the parent fish means more focus on the fry and less stress to the mother and father. We want zero stress to complete an already stressful duty of producing eggs and raising fry.

If your challenging yourself to produce fry from a pair or a group of fish, then provide the optimum environment and hope the fish respond as we hope with eggs and then fry.
If your hopes are that they will spawn in a community tank, then hope for the best by providing everything you can, but understand that it may or may not happen if fish are distracted by other occupants of the aquarium.

Hope it helps.