Apistogramma mendezi fry

[arifhb]

Hello to everyone!

I have an 85 liter tank; pH 5.0 Tds 60 ppm. I keep 9 cardinal tetras and a pair of mendeses inside. Five days ago the fries went free swimming, and today it looks like mama mendezi stopped caring for the fries. The male was not aggressive until now, but now he is putting pressure on the female. There is no nitrate in the tank. Why might the mother mendezi leave the pups early?

 

[MacZ]

Why might the mother mendezi leave the pups early?

I keep 9 cardinal tetras

Cardinals are predators, very likely she gave up after losing too many.

The male was not aggressive until now, but now he is putting pressure on the female.

He has likely noticed that she is free, but not ready for a new spawn. Males of almost all species chase females that are not ready for a new spawn relentlessly until they are ready again. Do you have another tank to move one of them to if necessary?

Is the tank sufficiently structured?

 

[arifhb]

Thank you MacZ. I forgot to say this; there were very few fries (10-15). This is the couple's third fry, but for the first time, the numbers are small and the offspring are very small. Cardinals could not approach the fry, the male and female protect them well. I think for the reason that I just mentioned, that is, because the offspring were few in number and very weak, they died over time. In this case, as you said, taking care of 3-4 puppies is a waste of time for the mother.

This is the image of the tank;

 

[MacZ]

Cardinals could not approach the fry, the male and female protect them well.

They can, believe me. But that said, even unsuccessful attempts put the parents under a lot of stress. In such situations the females tend to eat the fry, as producing eggs takes a lot of recources that have to be saved.

It's a very nice tank, and while it very well replicates the habitat, it has one decisive flaw: Lack of structure. In the wild fish can just move away. In an aquarium the space is limited. With that much open area and no hopes for the female to hide without being found at some point, the tank will long term not be able to house the pair. I would probably remove the female to another tank and leave the display to a single male.

Also, do I see that right? There are 3 Apistogramma in the tank?

 

[arifhb]

They can, believe me. But that said, even unsuccessful attempts put the parents under a lot of stress. In such situations the females tend to eat the fry, as producing eggs takes a lot of recources that have to be saved.

It's a very nice tank, and while it very well replicates the habitat, it has one decisive flaw: Lack of structure. In the wild fish can just move away. In an aquarium the space is limited. With that much open area and no hopes for the female to hide without being found at some point, the tank will long term not be able to house the pair. I would probably remove the female to another tank and leave the display to a single male.

Also, do I see that right? There are 3 Apistogramma in the tank?

Yes, I know cardinals are good hunters. The tank area is not very open, there is leaf litter and small bushes. I'm no newbie to apistogramma; I have had many kinds of feed and fry. But this is the first time I have observed this situation. I still see frying in the tank now. The male wants to breed and the female enters the coconut shell. Sometimes he also protects the fry he sees against the man. Really weird! As I mentioned, there is a coconut shell in the tank and the female has always laid eggs here. It's safe there. And there's only one pair in the tank right now. Other Mendezi youngsters in the image are the fry of this female. They are not in the tank.

 

[MacZ]

Ok. I got nothing to add. If you define the tank as "not open", allright. This is a thing of perception, then. Or maybe something is lost in translation. I don't know.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If you define the tank as "not open", allright. This is a thing of perception, then. Or maybe something is lost in translation. I don't know.

The tank area is not very open,

@MacZ is right, it is very open. You need to put in a <"lot more structure"> to break up line of sight.

At the moment it is stressful for Apistogramma, the female has little hope of protecting the fry from the Cardinal Tetra and she can't hide from the male when she isn't ready to spawn, and he can't hide from her when she has fry if she turns aggressive.

cheers Darrel

 

[arifhb]

Hi all,



@MacZ is right, it is very open. You need to put in a <"lot more structure"> to break up line of sight.

At the moment it is stressful for Apistogramma, the female has little hope of protecting the fry from the Cardinal Tetra and she can't hide from the male when she isn't ready to spawn, and he can't hide from her when she has fry if she turns aggressive.

cheers Darrel

Thanks to everyone who commented. Dear Darrel, actually there are enough optical barriers in the tank but as you said maybe I can increase the dry leaf stock. I leave a pose where you can see the bottom of the tank more closely;

The thing I'm really curious about is, as I said, the frying stock was about 10-15. The parents were protecting together. I'm seeing 2-3 fry now and the mother still displays protective instincts when she sees them. But most of the time she is busy avoiding the man. This is my first time witnessing this. If there was no fry left in the species I had previously fed, the female division would act. Now there is frying; strange!

 

[MacZ]

This is not the kind of structure necessary. We are talking of a complete block of the line of sight between 0 and 15 cm above the ground.

Something like this:


As you can see, you can't see to the other side of the wood and leaves from front to back. This is proper breaking of lines of sight.

As I said, your tank is a nice replica of the habitat, and a great display tank, it is not suitable for pair or group keeping in my opinion.

 

[arifhb]

This is not the kind of structure necessary. We are talking of a complete block of the line of sight between 0 and 15 cm above the ground.

Something like this:
View attachment 11299
View attachment 11300
As you can see, you can't see to the other side of the wood and leaves from front to back. This is proper breaking of lines of sight.

As I said, your tank is a nice replica of the habitat, and a great display tank, it is not suitable for pair or group keeping in my opinion.

There are vertical and horizontal obstacles here as well. There are areas to hide.

 

[MacZ]

Ok. We have very different perceptions of that.

 

[arifhb]

Ok. We have very different perceptions of that.

I agree with you; The more obstacles the better. I'll be getting them into breeding tanks soon.

 

[MacZ]

I'll be getting them into breeding tanks soon.

Good decision.

 

[Ben Rhau]

There are vertical and horizontal obstacles here as well. There are areas to hide.
View attachment 11301

If a fish can see another fish (which it can through those branches) they may consider that fish to be an intruder in their territory. That’s why Mac and Darrel are suggesting sight-proof barriers in the bottom third of the tank to delineate territories that are about a square foot in size.

When there’s visibility across the tank like this, you can’t stop the chasing, in my experience, no matter how many caves there are.

 

[arifhb]

If a fish can see another fish (which it can through those branches) they may consider that fish to be an intruder in their territory. That’s why Mac and Darrel are suggesting sight-proof barriers in the bottom third of the tank to delineate territories that are about a square foot in size.

When there’s visibility across the tank like this, you can’t stop the chasing, in my experience, no matter how many caves there are.

In general, having too many obstacles at the base prevents aggression. However, this does not completely stop the aggression. Most fish also have a unique character; They can also be benign. I have grown apisto in most of my tanks without unnecessary hindrance. The tank where I looked at the mendezi pair before had a smaller and more open area than here, and I was able to fry in that tank without any problems. Standard answers do not apply in all circumstances. here is my previous breeding tank;

This 32 liters.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I understand that, I’m not saying you have to do the tank that way. I’m just confirming those barriers don’t exist in your tank, which can also be valid depending on your context.

 

[MacZ]

In general, having too many obstacles at the base prevents aggression. However, this does not completely stop the aggression.

It's not about preventing aggression, it's about giving the fish the chance to evade each other. They are still in a limited space.
Otherwise, if that's your experience, allright.

 

[arifhb]

It's not about preventing aggression, it's about giving the fish the chance to evade each other. They are still in a limited space.
Otherwise, if that's your experience, allright.

I understand and approve of you. This couple has never been too aggressive towards each other. As you mentioned, having many hiding places reduces the stress on fish in tanks with limited volume. But that's not the reason for my current situation. In the smaller breeding tank the mendeses did not. Why did he leave the fries early when his conditions were better now? I guess the only explanation for this is not the optical barrier.

 

[ButtNekkid]

Thank you MacZ. I forgot to say this; there were very few fries (10-15). This is the couple's third fry, but for the first time, the numbers are small and the offspring are very small. Cardinals could not approach the fry, the male and female protect them well. I think for the reason that I just mentioned, that is, because the offspring were few in number and very weak, they died over time. In this case, as you said, taking care of 3-4 puppies is a waste of time for the mother.

This is the image of the tank;
View attachment 11296

Hi,

That tank is absolutely insane! Many years I´ve been thinking about doing something similar. What are those branches?

 

[MacZ]

I understand and approve of you. This couple has never been too aggressive towards each other. As you mentioned, having many hiding places reduces the stress on fish in tanks with limited volume. But that's not the reason for my current situation. In the smaller breeding tank the mendeses did not. Why did he leave the fries early when his conditions were better now? I guess the only explanation for this is not the optical barrier.

I would not underestimate the overall difference in environments between a display and a breeding tank. e.g. choice of dithers, lighting, structure...
You asked what could have caused the loss of that spawn and one has to go through the obvious things just as well as the not so obvious.
That said, how long has the tank been setup? You haven't mentioned that if I recollect that right.