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Apistogramma Elizabethae Breeding

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Anyone here breed Apistogramma Elizabethae? I am getting a F2 trio imported in from Malaysia in the next few weeks. My tap water is very hard so I am planning on using RO to trigger them to breed. What parameters should I aim for? From my reading, try to go in the low 5-6s. Any tips for getting them to spawn? Thanks.
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Fun fish! My experience with them went something like this, 7.2 pH/50tds eggs, no fry. 6.5 pH/50 tds eggs no fry. 6.0/50 eggs no fry. 5.5 eggs and fry (poor survival) 5.0/50 eggs and fry (better survival), 4.5/50 eggs and fry (excellent survival)
Thank you so much for the reply. What temp were you keeping them at?
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Ok. So I got my trio this morning and everyone is healthy. they are pretty little guys. A little skittish but that is expected. My TDS is around 40, ph is around 6.5. Do I need to further lower the PH or will this low TDS be fine. I'm not sure how to get it much lower besides using a chemical. My tank is loaded with botanicles and 6.5 seems to be what it likes to stay at. also worried about doing water changes on this tank with a massive PH difference. Let me know if you guys have any thoughts and if this setup will work.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
My TDS is around 40, ph is around 6.5. Do I need to further lower the PH or will this low TDS be fine.
The TDS are fine. pH just takes patience. You are aware that the egular addition of humic substances is necessary, even with botanicals in the tank? Because with every waterchange you remove some of these organic acids and you can't just add more and more botanicals (well... leaf litter can be added slowly with a handful of leaves every 2 weeks). I make a brew of 2l RO water, alder cones (10-20), leaves (~5) and rooibos tea (no additives! 2 bags) for every waterchange. The whole tank has about 100l net volume.
Alternatively you could use a mediabag of peat to get down to a solid 5.
Chemicals are not necessary unless you want to go below 4.5 very quickly. I'd just leave it as is and get some size on these fish in the meantime.

And no worries about the waterchanges, the pH won't fluctuate in a dangerous manner as long as you use soft water and add humic substances regularly.
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Here are some photos I got of them today. They are starting to color up and be more active. All 3 ate this morning. I have some live baby brine hatching later today for dinner.
 

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dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
.......... A little skittish but that is expected. My TDS is around 40, ph is around 6.5. Do I need to further lower the PH or will this low TDS be fine. I'm not sure how to get it much lower besides using a chemical. My tank is loaded with botanicles and 6.5 seems to be what it likes to stay at. also worried about doing water changes on this tank with a massive PH difference. ......
You don't need to worry about <"pH swings">, basically as you get towards pure H2O pH is less and less meaningful as a measurement. I'm assuming that your water change water has a low TDS?

In terms of lowering the pH further you could try <"citric acid">. Whether you can obtain it easily might depend on where you live.
Let me know if you guys have any thoughts and if this setup will work.
I would strongly recommend some <"floating plants">, "plant / microbe biofiltration" is a lot more robust than "microbe only biofiltration" .

cheers Darrel
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Hi all,

You don't need to worry about <"pH swings">, basically as you get towards pure H2O pH is less and less meaningful as a measurement. I'm assuming that your water change water has a low TDS?

In terms of lowering the pH further you could try <"citric acid">. Whether you can obtain it easily might depend on where you live.

I would strongly recommend some <"floating plants">, "plant / microbe biofiltration" is a lot more robust than "microbe only biofiltration" .

cheers Darrel
Yes, my water changes will basically be pure RO. And yeah, I got some frogbit tonight and added it into the tank. Appreciate the advice :)
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
I don't think you need to worry about getting the pH much lower. If you continue with botanicals, it will likely decrease to around 6 over time.

In terms of lowering the pH further you could try <"citric acid">.

For those that need extreme low pH blackwater, I recommend strong acid as opposed to citric acid. Of course, accompanied by all appropriate safety caveats (it's dangerous stuff). In the thread Darrel links to, boofeng and regani both found that the effects of citric acid degraded quickly over time. Here's what's most commonly used:
  • Dilute muriatic acid (HCl). If you live in Europe, you can probably buy an oak extract product for aquariums that contains this.
  • Dilute sulfuric acid. If you live in the US, you can buy this as "pH Down" a product by API.
  • Dilute phosphoric acid, which I've purchased as a lab reagent.
The fish don't care where the protons come from, so whatever you can easily get is fine. Just make sure to add acid and measure pH first outside the tank.

-B
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Your photos show a cloudy tank, which concerns me more than water values. It appears to be a bacterial bloom caused by insufficient biological filtration. Hope it clears up soon. Also the tank seems small and poorly laid-out for a breeding tank, especially for a trio of apistos.
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Your photos show a cloudy tank, which concerns me more than water values. It appears to be a bacterial bloom caused by insufficient biological filtration. Hope it clears up soon. Also the tank seems small and poorly laid-out for a breeding tank, especially for a trio of apistos.
It's a 20 long. Give me tips on how to set it up then, not sure what is bad about it.
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Also, I wouldn't call this a bacterial bloom considering the photo was immediately after putting the fish in.
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
Can you provide a full tank shot please ? To break lines of sight lots of woods, branches , inert rocks / pebbles and twigs can be carefully structured to provide lots of cover.
They are using the leaves as a little hiding spot as well. They can go under them and hide in there.
 

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Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Also, I wouldn't call this a bacterial bloom considering the photo was immediately after putting the fish in.
My question is why does it look cloudy? Even a blackwater tank is not cloudy, but looks like a cup of tea. The 1st photo of the tank was entered Jan 18, 2023 at 4:16 PM. The 2d photo was almost a day later. I would expect that this is enough time for any sediment to settle.
 

Solasis

Member
Messages
30
My question is why does it look cloudy? Even a blackwater tank is not cloudy, but looks like a cup of tea. The 1st photo of the tank was entered Jan 18, 2023 at 4:16 PM. The 2d photo was almost a day later. I would expect that this is enough time for any sediment to settle.
Tank is nice and clear now.. could the bacterial bloom been caused by the botanicals? Anyways, the fish are doing good. The male and female have been dancing at eachother. I think they will spawn soon. I have been feeding live baby brine daily. I can't get any live black worms, any other tips for conditioning these fish to spawn?
 

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