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Another Peat Filtration Question

Racine Vice

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Messages
67
Location
Racine, WI
First some background. I am interested in breeding dwarf cichlids, mainly West Africans and Apistogramma. Space is limited so I only keep a few small aquariums. So far I have spawned N. parilus, S. tinanti and A. cacatuoides 'Triple Red'.

I know most dwarfs need soft acidic water and the use of peat moss seems like the best option. I have been contemplating filtering my water through peat for some time, but haven't had the need until now (I recently aquired a breeding pair of A. panduro). Currently my method of making this soft acidic water will be based on the following link:

http://www.marksfish.me.uk/index.php/Tips/Peat-Filtering.html

I read through the existing threads here and found that peat filtration is popular. There seems to be a variety of methods, but I didn't find anything like this. I am using a 5 gallon bucket, about 4-5 inches of filter floss and 4-5 inches of peat moss. My question is, what exactly do I do with the resulting water (use all peat water for aquarium water; half peat water, half tap water; 1/4 peat water, 3/4 tap water; etc.)? The water is a lot darker than I expected it to be. With a few inches in a white bucket I cannot see the bottom. Should I be concerned about pH crashes?

Because the water is stained, I cannot measure the pH and hardness of the peat water, or the pH and hardness of the combined peat and tap water for that matter (I have the API liquid test kits). Last time I tested my tap water I think the pH was between 7.3 and 7.5 and GH was around 11, but I will test again soon to be sure. I ultimately want these fish to have the proper breeding conditions necessary for success.

Please advise,

Scott
 

dw1305

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Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Last time I tested my tap water I think the pH was between 7.3 and 7.5 and GH was around 11, but I will test again soon to be sure. I ultimately want these fish to have the proper breeding conditions necessary for success.
You really need to know what the carbonate buffering (dKH) value is for your water as well, but you can use peat to soften your water slightly.

The humic acid (acids are defined as H+ donors) binds the positively charged calcium (Ca 2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) ions, and exchanges them for positively charged hydrogen ions (H+), this also decreases the pH. This does have the side effect of staining your water yellow, but the tannins and humic acid compounds are good for fish. You need to keep replacing the peat as this process slows down and stops over time. If you have water with a high dGH (conc. of Ca and Mg ions), you need a lot of peat to donate enough H+ ions to accept all the Ca/Mg 2+ ions.

The problem with fish that come from soft, low TDS, acid water is process doesn't greatly effect the TDS, all you have done is replaced one sort of compound with another.

I'd try with 50:50 peat and tap, you will probably find that this is too hard, so I'd try upping the proportion of peat washed.

cheers Darrel
 

JIM

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Indiana
Also

You might also remember that most fish purchased from an LFS, are not wild caught fish, and most likely were not bred or raised in what their wild cousins consider acceptable.

Fish including Discus, "will" live and breed, very happily in water that is not dipped from the Amazon.

I have bred discus in 7.8 ph water, these were fish that came from a breeder that had done the same for several generations.
 

Racine Vice

Member
Messages
67
Location
Racine, WI
I have been working with wild fish up to this point (except for the triple reds of course). I received the panduro in an aquarium club auction, so I am unaware of their origins.

I tested my water with the API liquid test kits and these are the results:

KH - 7
GH - 9
pH - 7.5-7.7

The author of the peat filtration method in the link states dramatic decreases in both pH and KH, but I cannot verify with my test kits. Any idea of what kind of results I should expect? What ratio of this peat filtered water and tap water should I use in my aquarium? I assume it will have to be trial and error if I cannot test the water, but I am wondering where a good starting place would be.
 

Rod

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
196
Location
Brisbane,Australia
Peat is great.....but it is NOT the answer

The answer is simple.....:wink:

Most soft water fish come from rivers where rainwater is filtered through rotting vegetation

Tap water is manufactured by humans and generally contains a lot of dissolved solids(added in the purification process for different reasons).....great for humans to drink

But for fish...Repeat nature...she designs the best water for fish...we don't (not out of a tap at least)

I've only found 2 ways to give soft water fish the conditions they like
1....add rainwater
2....add RO water

Filter tap water through 10 tonne of peat if you like....wont work as well as above...IMO :biggrin:
 

Mike Wise

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5 Year Member
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Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Filter tap water through 10 tonne of peat if you like....wont work as well as above...IMO :biggrin:

This is true if you have strongly alkaline water (high dKH). My guess is that you do, since your dGH is high. They usually (but not always) go together. If, however, you're lucky like me and your tap water comes out at 2°dKH, then peat filtration will work just fine for most softwater fish. You really need to get an alkalinity/dKH test and determine your carbonate hardness.
 

Racine Vice

Member
Messages
67
Location
Racine, WI
After testing yesterday, my tap water comes out at 7°dKH and 9°dGH.

I understand RO would be optimal and I am weary of rain water living between Milwaukee and Chicago.

I am only intrigued by this method because of the stated results:
pH of 8.3 and KH 13 down to
pH of 5.0 and KH 3

Is this possible?

Thanks for the help so far!
 

Mike Wise

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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Depends on the quantity and type of peat used. Most peat won't drop the dKH that far in more alkalic water. If you can find a peat that has extremely high quantities of humic acids, you might get this result. I understand that some of the bog peats in Ireland and Siberia(?) are extremely acidic. Such peats aren't typically sold commercially. They are rare and not usable for soil conditioning. That's what commercial peat products are designed to be used for.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Mike is right, it isn't so much the origin of the peat (although it needs to come from "ombrotrophic mires" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog>) it is the degree of decomposition of the sphagnum moss in the peat.

The reason why sphagnum moss peat is better at acidifying water than nearly any other material is that the Sphagnum ssp. have specialised cells that are extremely efficient in exchanging H+ ions for other cations in the living plant. This is one reason why rain-fed mires end up building raise sphagnum moss domes, the moss itself creates extremely nutrient poor acid conditions which very few other plants can survive in. The actual mechanism is physical and continues in the semi-decomposed white peats, if these cells are intact. That is why you need "white peat" or "sphagnum moss". You can get it from orchid growers, alternatively you can buy "Shamrock" sphagnum peat from "Bord na Mona" etc. As the peat becomes more decomposed these cells lose their identity, but if the peat comes from a rain fed mire it will still contain no other cations, and have a high CEC.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/plants/bryophyta/sphagnomm.html

sphagnumcell.jpg


cheers Darrel
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Sphagnum Peat water softening

Thanks Darrel - I've been waiting many years for that explanantion! That's pretty amazing that the DEAD Sphagnum cells can keep exchanging H+ for Ca and Mg against a high concentration gradient. I would have guessed the stored Ca and Mg in live moss would just leach back out after it died. So, do you guys think LIVE Sphagnum would do even better, since it has more "incentive" (survival and growth) to keep up-taking Ca and Mg?
Makes me think of trying a "Live Sphagnum Trickle-Bog" in-line with a softwater fish tank. I remember talking with a guy named Phil in Missouri some years ago who grew semi-aquatic Sphagnum in his fish tanks, and praised its water quality benefits. Not that I really need it here: Hardness and alkalinity of my tap water are around 30-40 mg/l (~2 degrees GH and KH), and I use rainwater if I want it any softer.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
The CEC is definitely a 2 way street, and as the internal/external cation conc. changes, Ca2+ and Mg2+ ions will be exchanged back into the water for H+ ions etc.
Brown, P; Gill, S. & Allen, J. (2000)
"Metal removal from wastewater using peat"
Water Research 34:16, Pages 3907-3916
The mechanism of metal ion binding to peat remains a controversial area with ion-exchange, complexation, and surface adsorption being the prevalent theories. Factors affecting adsorption include pH, loading rates, and the presence of competing metals. The optimum pH range for metals capture is generally 3.5–6.5. Although the presence of more than one metal in a solution creates competition for sorption sites and less of a particular ion may be bound, the total sorption capacity has been found to increase.
..... I remember talking with a guy named Phil in Missouri some years ago who grew semi-aquatic Sphagnum in his fish tanks, and praised its water quality benefits.....
Yes, live sphagnum would work, I've grown insectivorous plants in live sphagnum and it is possible, but it isn't that easy to grow, and doesn't grow very quickly, but it would work as long as the water coming in was already pretty low in salts. <http://bluegrasscarnivores.com/>

cheers Darrel
 

Racine Vice

Member
Messages
67
Location
Racine, WI
Update

I have done two water changes with the peat water so far. The aquarium is 15 gallons and both water changes were 5 gallons. Of those 5 gallons, 1/3 was passed through the peat and 2/3 was straight tap water. I tested the water today and the KH dropped from 7 degrees to 5 degrees. Not bad considering the amount of peat water used, in my opinion anyway.

On a side note, the A. panduro in the tank spawned 7 days ago and the wigglers are doing well. Hopefully they make it to free swimming.

Scott
 

Racine Vice

Member
Messages
67
Location
Racine, WI
Another update

Using half peat filtered water and half tap water for water changes, the KH has bottomed out at 3. I wish I could measure pH, but a color comparison test would be difficult to make sense of with the tea colored water.

The panduro seem happy and their 30 or so fry are doing great so I will stick with this ratio for now. As was mentioned, perhaps the peat water was never necessary for a successful spawn.

The straight peat filtered water measures somewhere between 0 and 1 KH (the water doesn't turn blue with one drop of the API test solution). I will have to try this water with some more demanding dwarf cichids to see if this method is actually effective for me. Any suggestions of which dwarf cichlids would be happy in this very dark blackwater?

Scott
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Using half peat filtered water and half tap water for water changes, the KH has bottomed out at 3. I wish I could measure pH, but a color comparison test would be difficult to make sense of with the tea colored water. The panduro seem happy and their 30 or so fry are doing great so I will stick with this ratio for now...

Well done, I'm pleased things are working out and your fry doing well. You really don't need to worry about the pH, if the dKH is about 3, and the fish are healthy you can just ignore the pH, it is a pretty meaningless measurement at low levels of carbonate buffering.

cheers Darrel
 

Jacco

Member
Messages
45
Hi Darrel,
Was this last comment about this specific case? Having young fry and happy fish.
Or when dKH is les than 3 then dont worry about pH. And in that case how about malawi water?
Also soft but with high pH.
Thx.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
You really don't need to worry about the pH, if the dKH is about 3, and the fish are healthy you can just ignore the pH, it is a pretty meaningless measurement at low levels of carbonate buffering.....Was this last comment about this specific case? Having young fry and happy fish. Or when dKH is les than 3 then dont worry about pH. And in that case how about malawi water? Also soft but with high pH
My original quote specifically relates to the water for A. panduro, which need soft water, but not extreme black water to breed successfully. We know that the water that A. panduro originates in is low in all salts, which is reflected in its low conductivity.

We have this a lot in areas of the UK where the water was traditionally very soft, the water companies are now adding NaOH , which produces soft alkaline water with pH8, but with no carbonate buffering.

There is some more discussion here: <http://www.britishcichlid.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7435&start=30> & a practical example of water management here: <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9323>.

pH
The problem with pH is that it isn't a straight forward reading, but a ratio on a log10 scale and it requires some interpretation before you can make much sense of it. In water with few solutes, or little carbonate buffering, pH will always be a moveable feast.

You always need to think of your water in terms of the amount of H+ ions, the ratio of H+ ion donors (acids) and acceptors (alkali or bases), and the reserve of bases (or dKH).

If you want an example I'll use phosphate buffers (conjugated acid: base pair NaH2PO4 & Na2HPO4), one in either pan of the acid/alkaline balance, <http://microscopy.berkeley.edu/Resources/instruction/buffers.html>.

Using this buffer at pH7, we have a ratio of 39:61 (O.2M) NaH2PO4 & Na2HPO4, and this applies if we have 39:61 micrograms (10-6) or milligrams (10-3) or grams or kilograms (103), the pH is still pH7, because the ratio remains the same.

ph-balance-scales.jpg


In the microgram analogy adding a gram in the "acid" pan makes a huge difference to pH , but in the kilo bag analogy adding another gram to the acid pan makes very little difference to the ratio or pH.

This is also where conductivity can be useful to us, H2O is an electrical insulator (reads 0 ppm TDS or 0 microS), but as we dissolve both weak acids and salts (as their constituent ions), conductivity rises. If we measured the "microgram" pH7 solution it would have a very low conductivity, but the "kilogram" example will have a huge TDS value in the thousands.

Rift Lakes
If you have fish that come from soft, but alkaline conditions, where there is low carbonate hardness, you need to use a different approach. Lake Malawi/Victoria cichlids actually do well in much harder water than is present in Lake Malawi etc (lake Malawi water is pH ~pH7.8, about 8dKH and a conductivity about 250 microS cm−1).

Lake Tanganyika is really the "odd one out" in water terms as it is more similar to a marine environment, and getting the right water chemistry really matters if you keep Tanganyikan's.

There are water parameter figures for the Rift lakes here: <http://www.mchportal.com/fishkeepin...akes-water-parameters-in-natural-habitats.pdf>.

cheers Darrel
 

Jacco

Member
Messages
45
Hi Darrel, thx for your explanation. So if i understand right: pH is a (log) ratio of H+ and OH-. Meaning pH 6 doesn't say anything about the amount of H+ only that there are 100 times more H+ than OH- in solution. In water with low conductivity there is also a low concentration of H+, meaning that the pH (potentially, depending on buffers) can be moved by adding only a small amount of H+ or OH-.

I also read somewhere a post by (i think) you that pH measurements at low conductivity are difficult/unreliable. One woud need to buy an expensive pH-meter to get a decent reading. Does this also apply to pH paper? I use pH paper (cheap, does not break, nor require me to be carefull) with a range from pH 4 - 7 and am now wondering if these readings will be usefull at low conductivity's.
 

merlin

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
210
Location
Dundee,Scotland
A slight aside. I bought a bale of "shamrock Irish Moss Peat" and it was like earth. The item in the linked web site is more like dried sphagnum moss. Can anyone point me in the right direction.

Derek
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I bought a bale of "shamrock Irish Moss Peat" and it was like earth
Shamrock moss peat should have been all right, the problem is probably that Bord na Mona <http://www.bordnamona.ie/> have cut all the white peats, and are now milling the much more decomposed and older black peats.I know a lot of the "Bog of Allen" around the peat fired power stations has been denuded back to the basal clays <http://www.ipcc.ie/peatland-action-plan/extent-utilisation-of-irish-peatlands/>. I'd try soaking a handful in some water for a couple of days and it may look a bit more peat like.

So if i understand right: pH is a (log) ratio of H+ and OH-. Meaning pH 6 doesn't say anything about the amount of H+ only that there are 100 times more H+ than OH- in solution. In water with low conductivity there is also a low concentration of H+, meaning that the pH (potentially, depending on buffers) can be moved by adding only a small amount of H+ or OH-.
Yes, I think that is right in principle, but pH6 (H+ conc 10-6) would have x10 more H+ ions than pH7 and pH5 x 100 more (H+ conc = 10-5). I'm not sure about pH papers, my suspicion would be that you won't get much colour change at all in low conductivity "water" (really a dilute solution of ions in H2O as a solvent).

The problem isn't really with the measurement, but with the pH scale itself. pH will always be unstable in very soft water, but this isn't a problem to the organisms that live in it.

We did have a discussion a while ago about ways of getting a more stable pH reading which covered this subject in some detail, if you haven't seen it, it is well worth reading, and you may find Ted's posts very interesting <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/ok.12048/#post-65588>.

cheers Darrel
 

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