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A numbers

apistobob

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
161
Location
N.W. USA
I have been spending some time with the new DATZ book that I got from Mike Wise (I don't know if he has any left but if you didn't get one from him you should!).

One of the ideas they are advancing is the establishment of an A number system for Apistos. The thinking is that by giving every fish an A number it will not matter if there are multiple names or new names established. While I am all in favor of better IDs and names I am very skeptical about the A numbers. I saw in a recent post that Mike has a few of the same concerns I have. My biggest questions:

The current numbers were assigned based on relationships to each other. However, I don't see where there is any provision to add new species into the appropriate places. Therefore a new species that is very similar to another might have a hundred or more numbers between them. Along the same line, two new species that are very different could end up being one number apart. I see a lot of confusion coming.

Next, who assigns new numbers? Who arbitrates numbers? Is DATZ going to become the worldwide naming organization? If not can anyone add a new A number? If this is the case how do we know when new numbers are used. I can see the day coming when two or three different fish end up with the same new number and we are left with greater confusion than we have now.

Also, I have to believe that there are ID experts who don't agree with all of this book as far as ID goes. It seems to me that we are being asked to not only accept the numbering system but also to agree with the authors about their IDs. (having said that, I am not disputing any of the names I saw - I do have a few questions but those are for another post).

Does anyone out there believe that the A numbers are going to be a better way to ID our fish? I am really interested to hear from anyone who thinks the numbers are a good thing. I am currently thinking that I will not be using them.

Bob
 

mummymonkey

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
185
Location
Blairgowrie (UK)
They work well for plecos and corys. In principle it should work with apistos.

Perhaps they've introduced it too late? There are already many undescribed apistos in the hobby with established and well known trade names. Also giving numbers to described species just makes things more confusing. (IMO)

I think they wanted to number the fish as they did for identification purposes, (the lookalike fish will be close to each other in any new books) but like you say, why didn't they leave gaps? When new fish are numbered they will either have to produce new books out of numerical order, or out of relationship order.

New C & L numbers are given as new fish appear in the hobby (I'm assuming this is done by Datz). As the fish are new, they don't yet have established trade/hobby names, so the L & C numbers tend to stick.

If the Datz people can get any new apistos and number them before they enter the hobby, and the exporters use those numbers consistantly, then it should work in the same manner.

Another issue may be identifying the fish at source. Much harder with apistos than with catfish. Many of the apistos in dealers tanks that I see are just labelled "apistos".
 

tjudy

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,822
Location
Stoughton, WI
I think that using an A-number system is a good idea, because the use of locality names can be more confusing. That being said, I do not know how anyone assigning numbers will be able to be any more confident of collection localities unless the only way a fish gets a number is if the fish is collected by a scientist/hobby-scientist who documents the collection point INCLUDING GPS COORDINATES. Why aren't people consistantly using a GPS when collecting fish?

The catfish systems have the same problems that the A system will have. The lack of gaps being a big one. One problem with even assigning a relationship status is that sometimes the relationship is not clear. Are there, or will there be, forms that are intermediate to the regani and steindachneri groups? Probably... or something like that.

The numbering system is a classification system invented by a publisher/author... no reason it cannot be changed or another publisher/author suggesting a different, more useful system. The truth is that the systems help sell books. The L-numbers and LDA-numbers are different systems that both identify the same loricariids.

How would you do it? I would number fish in a code that describes relationships, making the sequential number issue a moot problem. For example, I might assign the regani group the letter R, the nijsseni group the letter N, steindachneri - S, etc. A fish that is in that group could be identified by the number:

A-R-001 ... Apistogramma - regani group - type 001

A system like this could also make use of the comlpexes:

A-A-P-001 ... Apistogramma - aggassizii group - pulchra complex - type 001
 

blueblue

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,876
Location
Hong Kong
i think of one easier way which is to use suffice;
for instance, for the fish which are closely related to A100, and should
be placed between A100 and A101, then we simply use
A100.1, A100.2, ... or A100a, A100b, A100c, etc... to represent them.
It is easy to use and is sufficient in most cases. Moreover, later on,
when one "new" species is found to be the same as the others, then removing
"A100.1" is better than removing A100 as removing A100 will leave an ugly gap in the ordering...
 

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