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40g Breeder All Male Tank Questions

Azog

New Member
Messages
10
Hello! Looking to stock my 40 breeder with males of different species. How many would be comfortable? Anyone keep livebearers? What sort? I like the idea of self sustaining dithers haha! Figured besides them, maybe a school of tetra, a few otos and a bristle nosed pleco. Looking forward to everyone’s advices!
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
How many would be comfortable?
One (In numbers: 1). Sorry. Once you've got some experience with dwarf cichlids you might try a second species from a different genus, but for a beginner in dwarf cichlids, stick to a single male.

One male Apistogramma and some (10-15) tetras or pencilfish, after 6 months (not earlier!) you might think about Otocinclus. Plecos might get into competition with Apistogramma for caves, so not the best company.

Livebearers are quite active and if in sufficient numbers basically no food but some scraps reaches the bottom where Apistogramma live. Same goes for danios and the like. The more active the less suitable. Also livebearers prefer hard water, dwarf cichlids soft water.
 

Azog

New Member
Messages
10
Thank you for the detailed reply. While I may be new to apistogramma, I'm not new to aquarium keeping. Kept many tanks for years. Lots of cichlids...almost exclusively. Not any dwarfs, but I am sure some of my experience carries over.
What makes you so adamant about getting 1 apistogramma? What makes it so hard to care for? Why the wait for the otos? Do they bug apistos? Would a few of the same species (1male + females) change your recommendation?
I appreciate all the info, that's why I'm here!
 
Last edited:

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Lots of cichlids...almost exclusively. Not any dwarfs, but I am sure some of my experience carries over.
I thought so, too. It didn't. I came from a decade of breeding Malawis and Tanganyikas before.

If you want to keep more than one male Apistogramma, even of different species, you have to make sure you have the room (60cm diameter per territory for a male) and the structure (lines of sight broken by driftwood and rocks). Otherwise it's a gamble at the expense of the animals. If there's a risk of losses through stress and aggression I wouldn't take that risk.

Why the wait for the otos?
Otocinclus are feeding specialists (aufwuchs: the mix of bacteria, biofilms, algae and infusoria growing on surfaces underwater) and are almost exclusively offered as wild caught fish. They arrive pretty much starved half to death at stores in Europe and North America and are not used to supplementory feeding, i.e. often don't recognize food tabs and other food items. Only after 6 months a new tank usually has the amounts of aufwuchs to sustain these fish without losses. A properly seasoned and decorated 200 liter tank can sustain 3-4 individuals without supplements.
Generally with Otocinclus (except the rare tankbreds), you can expect loss rates of up to 100% within the first 3 months depending on the quality of the batch upon arrival. All fish that make it that far are usually safe.

Would a few of the same species (1male + females) change your recommendation?
Not really, in a display tank as you seem to be aiming for a mixed sex group or a pair is giving you more trouble than you ask for. Until the female is in brooding mode it will be chased relentlessly by the male. Once they spawn the tables turn and all other fish are getting the short end from her.

This is at least the case you have to assume for most species. There are some exceptions, though. Question is whether they are an option for you.

A. borellii is pretty much the only species you could keep in a group in that tank size. Maybe even 3 males without females. But that's about it.

Domestic strains of other species like A. cacatuoides, A. agassizii and A. macmasteri I don't recommend at all. Overbred, permanent health problems, short life expectancy.
 

Azog

New Member
Messages
10
Wow! Thank you. Great information for me.

I think I've got the plot now. Sounds like wild caught fish are preferred? I'll see if I can find some Borelli. Do the concerns with tank bred fish apply to then as well?
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
I believe Mac is a bit conservative in his opinion only to be sure all of the fish live a long, happy, stress-free life. A lot of your questions really depend on how your 40B is laid out structure-wise. If properly done, 2, possibly 3 males of different species with different physical appearance - but similar in size and behavior are possible. I would never keep a possible breeding pair of apistos in a community tank (see Mac's comments) like you considered. There are dozens of livebearing species in the hobby. Most tend to do best in different water values than apistos, so you need to know what values are best for both groups. As for self-sustaining tetra species, there are some - depending on water values. My 40B community, for example, produces an excess of Hemmigrammus rodwayi. This is the species sold as the Gold Tetra, but they are gold only due to body paracites. Domestic, non-paracitized, specimens are basically silver fish, which I have - and how many people want a plain little silver fish in their tank other than me!
 

Azog

New Member
Messages
10
Thank you, Mike! I appreciate a different perspective. I have plenty of awesome stones and driftwood I can turn into hiding spots. I've got some research to do on live-bearers and tetra haha. Very happy I brought my questions here. Great info.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I believe Mac is a bit conservative in his opinion only to be sure all of the fish live a long, happy, stress-free life.
Maybe also a bit idealistic as well. I guess everybody has their reasons. I kinda want to make good for the mistakes we made back then with the Rift Lake cichlids. It wasn't all shiny, especially not when you breed semi-professionally as a side-business. There are some practices in that circuit... questionable at best.
If properly done, 2, possibly 3 males of different species with different physical appearance - but similar in size and behavior are possible.
I hinted at that and hoped you or somebody else might elaborate.
and how many people want a plain little silver fish in their tank other than me!
Here! My Hemigrammus filamentosus are basically the same. Even less sparkly and more of a dull grey. ;)
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
281
I am inclined to agree with MacZ though I do have very limited experience. A 40B is not very big I think? I once tried to keep a male agassizii and 3 cacatuoides (all wild) in a 120cm long tank (about 63 gallons). For a while it worked out OK, the dominant cacatuoides and the agassizii setting up territories at different ends of the tank and only arguing occasionally in the middle. But gradually the agassizii became more and more dominant trying to take over the whole tank, despite it being well planted and structured. Eventually I felt the dominant cacatuoides was getting too stressed so I moved him and one of the smaller males to another tank. The other one I left as I couldn’t catch it. It then developed full male characteristics (I had been hoping the two smaller ones would be females). Eventually it too started to have conflicts with the agassizii and one day died suddenly, perhaps due to stress. I recently got 2 pairs of A. “Ladislao” and while the were in quarantine in a 175l tank one male almost killed the other. So now I am very wary of keeping 2 males together, except in a much larger tank.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I'll see if I can find some Borelli. Do the concerns with tank bred fish apply to then as well?
Na, that's fine. It's not about being tankbred.
I distinguish between wild form: Looks/behaves like a fish from the wild, but can of course be born and raised in captivity as well.
and domestic form: Sometimes barely recognisable in comparison with the wild fish. May have flashy colours, veil fins, different body shape... and so on.
Both can be massproduced, the wild form specimens tend to be more resilient still.

It's only the domestic forms that I don't recommend.
 

Azog

New Member
Messages
10
I am inclined to agree with MacZ though I do have very limited experience. A 40B is not very big I think? I once tried to keep a male agassizii and 3 cacatuoides (all wild) in a 120cm long tank (about 63 gallons). For a while it worked out OK, the dominant cacatuoides and the agassizii setting up territories at different ends of the tank and only arguing occasionally in the middle. But gradually the agassizii became more and more dominant trying to take over the whole tank, despite it being well planted and structured. Eventually I felt the dominant cacatuoides was getting too stressed so I moved him and one of the smaller males to another tank. The other one I left as I couldn’t catch it. It then developed full male characteristics (I had been hoping the two smaller ones would be females). Eventually it too started to have conflicts with the agassizii and one day died suddenly, perhaps due to stress. I recently got 2 pairs of A. “Ladislao” and while the were in quarantine in a 175l tank one male almost killed the other. So now I am very wary of keeping 2 males together, except in a much larger tank.

Nasty lil buggers! Thanks for the insight.
 

Azog

New Member
Messages
10
Na, that's fine. It's not about being tankbred.
I distinguish between wild form: Looks/behaves like a fish from the wild, but can of course be born and raised in captivity as well.
and domestic form: Sometimes barely recognisable in comparison with the wild fish. May have flashy colours, veil fins, different body shape... and so on.
Both can be massproduced, the wild form specimens tend to be more resilient still.

It's only the domestic forms that I don't recommend.

Any breeders you could recommend in the United States?
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
For the US, that’s very good list. Jeff’s list also fluctuates seasonally. Tristan’s list is quite short at the moment, but he (also) has a very good reputation for quality.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
wetspot has some decent stocking and they qt their fishes before selling. jdaquatics has developed a reputation that is positive. tangelupcichild is fantastic but they generally sell larger cichild but sometime has a few dwarves.

Btw i've kept 3 set of cichild in a 40B with success; but it looks like this from the top:
41.jpg


Basically wall to wall plants from front to back with about 6 different pieces of driftwood ranging from 3 inches wide to around 14 inches wide; not that you can see any of it from top or side or front.
 

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