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Apistogramma Macmasteri Harem Stocking

shangman

New Member
Messages
16
Hi all,

I have a heavily planted 180L 90x50x50 community tank.

I currently have a pair of adult beautiful Macmasteri in there, along with some Cardinal tetras, pygmy corydoras and otos.

The pair are lovely and have bred a few times in this tank but the fry don't survive, I don't mind though as this pair I bred myself along with 35 others and it was enough to do it once. It was great but I don't need to try to do it again! The current pair are not that aggressive at all and haven't hurt any other fish when breeding.

I would like to keep another female or two in the tank if possible. Will this be ok with the current 2 fish, or will things get hairy? I don't want the new fish to get bullied, which is why I thought maybe 2 new females would be better than one.

I have a lot of leaves all over the tank and will add extra seedpods strategically for the females to claim as their caves if it's possible.

Thanks!

PXL_20211017_181953683~2.jpg
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
That is a great looking tank.

I would stick to the pair and be content with it. Adding any more specimens will at least cause trouble among the females. The structure is good, but not practical for a trio either. Caves alone don't make a territory. Lines of sight have to be broken and possibilities to evade each other. Two fish can easily do that in your tank, for three this will likely not work out.

One more thing: There is no bullying among fish. It's a human concept. Among fish there is territorial behaviour and intraspecies aggression. Both are completely differently motivated from bullying, because they're instinctive. Not even "in practice" I see any parallels.
 

shangman

New Member
Messages
16
Thank you!!

I thought it might be pushing it, alas. Do you have any examples of tanks with enough of the right sort of territory/sight lines for more than one female? I like to design my tanks for the fish to thrive so it would be really useful to know! Particularly interested in understanding the way the fish evade eachother.

Apologies for the wrong wording. Things are very peaceful in the tank at the moment, the pair are not aggressive or territorial with each other (when the female has fry she will gently encourage the male away), and while the female is territorial and will chase away fish that come within 10cm of her/her fry, she hasn't injured or killed any fish and doesn't chase them all over the tank.

I really like the peaceful quality of the tank, even when breeding things are fine, so if adding new females would completely disturb that then I won't add them. I had just read that Macmasteri were harem fish and that it might work well, I suppose I should've added them all together at the start!
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
For understanding structure: Apistogramma tend to populate mostly only the bottom 3rd of the tank. Hence breaking the lines of sight means putting rocks, driftwood and/or dense patches of plants in as such view blocks. Usually the fish defending a territory will also follow others around corners, so a block from glass to glass is to be preferred. An open area as you have it right now to the front (and likely the back?) of the tank is to be considered a territory. I have also seen fish ignoring any borders we as fishkeepers put in, as we can never predict if they also see it as that or not.

I had just read that Macmasteri were harem fish and that it might work well
But does that mean you HAVE TO keep them in a harem? It does not. If you have the pair live in harmony currently I see no reason to break that up now, just out of a whim that could end up for one of the fish in stress and even death. I have to admit the thought of trying to add a as-big-as-possible number of territorial fish completely escapes me. I can get my head around it with shoaling or gregarious fish, but anything that is territorial should be kept in the smallest number possible in a community setting. So when at one point one of the pair dies, rather leave the other one alone until it also dies before restocking with anything else.

I suppose I should've added them all together at the start!
Very much. You would have had to design the tank layout for this from the start. And I find it would be shame to dismantle this beautiful and working tank now just to add 1 fish, that might not even work out.

So... probably a case of "Never change a running system".

Also, I'm not saying it's not possible in this tank size. But it is also far from mandatory.
 
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shangman

New Member
Messages
16
But does that mean you HAVE TO keep them in a harem? It does not. If you have the pair live in harmony currently I see no reason to break that up now, just out of a whim that could end up for one of the fish in stress and even death.

Oh don't worry, I already realised from your first post that I won't be adding any more females, the questions I asked above were for when I design my next tank or rescape this one in a few years!

I like what you said about corners, and I can see what you mean that my tank atm is a big single territory with it's one main area of sand, next time I'll design with 2 - 3 separate sand areas, ore front-to-back structure and territories in mind. I'm sure I'll return with design drawings for you when the time comes!

I will consider my peaceful tank fully successful with a pair and not to be tampered with :) I don't want to stress my current pair as they are extremely charming, I suppose one of the reasons they are that way is that they can relax in this tank which is all theirs. Will just enjoy it as it is and be thankful for no issues so far!
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
BTW, A. macmasteri, like most regani-lineage species, is not polygamous. A male, if it does not have a need to protect a territory, will 'explore' other opportunities. I consider then casually polygamous, but males do not make an effort to acquire a harem.
 

shangman

New Member
Messages
16
BTW, A. macmasteri, like most regani-lineage species, is not polygamous. A male, if it does not have a need to protect a territory, will 'explore' other opportunities. I consider then casually polygamous, but males do not make an effort to acquire a harem.
This is very interesting, thank you. So is it that harem apisto males purposefully want/collect multiple females in their territory, pairing ones just want one female, and the macmasteris don't mind either way and shoot their shot when the opportunity knocks?

I only have a very basic knowledge of apisto relationship dynamics (clearly), what does this mean for the macmasteri females, do they have any special dynamics? (don't worry I'm not getting any more, just curious)
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Polygamous males try to establish a territory that will house several females' territories in it. The male will spawn with each female and leave the female's territory. If there is only 1 female, the male often harasses even brooding females in an attempt to breed.

Casually polygamous males also try to establish a territory with at least 1 female territory in it. It will actively protect its territory from other fish but allows the brooding female some peace. If there is no need to protect its territory, and another female establishes a territory within his, he will breed with it, too.

Species that form 'breeding pairs' establish a joint territory and protect it and any offspring jointly. They form a pair only as long as breeding is successful and may split if they find a more suitable breeding partner.
 

shangman

New Member
Messages
16
Polygamous males try to establish a territory that will house several females' territories in it. The male will spawn with each female and leave the female's territory. If there is only 1 female, the male often harasses even brooding females in an attempt to breed.

Casually polygamous males also try to establish a territory with at least 1 female territory in it. It will actively protect its territory from other fish but allows the brooding female some peace. If there is no need to protect its territory, and another female establishes a territory within his, he will breed with it, too.

Species that form 'breeding pairs' establish a joint territory and protect it and any offspring jointly. They form a pair only as long as breeding is successful and may split if they find a more suitable breeding partner.
This is fascinating, thank you for the explaination Mike!

IMG_6808_2 (1).jpg


Here's my casually polygamous guy. Thought I'd show him off cos he really has become quite a stunner, 10 months old and finally all grown up!
 
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aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
If you have not already, look up "black water" tanks. You can probably find an aquascape you like that would also provide extra territory. Leaf litter goes a long way, it creates a maze that bullied fish can use to get away.

I have been through several of these style tanks in my 100p. Will probably do another one soon for my office. Wish I had pictures for you. Even fry tend to survive because theres so much microfauna and places to hide.
 

shangman

New Member
Messages
16
If you have not already, look up "black water" tanks. You can probably find an aquascape you like that would also provide extra territory. Leaf litter goes a long way, it creates a maze that bullied fish can use to get away.

I have been through several of these style tanks in my 100p. Will probably do another one soon for my office. Wish I had pictures for you. Even fry tend to survive because theres so much microfauna and places to hide.
I've been petitioning the family to allow me a blackwater for a while! Would love to try it, hopefully they can be convinced soon... I even have a second hand 120L 100x40x30 tank and filter ready to go in the shed . My big tank in this thread has been quite a journey to get going (my first high-tech), maybe once it's fully lush and stable the blackwater can begin. Need to convince them off the potential beauty, especially as it would have to go in the living room!

Was planning on having lots of emergent foliage so I can still have some plants and create a pond-y look. In my fantasies of this tank I'd keep a group of dicrossus and some pencilfish.

Love dead leaves, in the back of this tank there is a big pile of magnolia grandiflora leaves, and really want to explore it further in a proper biotope-y blackwater that's all mulmy and rooty.

What different styles have you tried? I'm really intrigued by all the possibilities of blackwater!
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
I've been petitioning the family to allow me a blackwater for a while! Would love to try it, hopefully they can be convinced soon... I even have a second hand 120L 100x40x30 tank and filter ready to go in the shed . My big tank in this thread has been quite a journey to get going (my first high-tech), maybe once it's fully lush and stable the blackwater can begin. Need to convince them off the potential beauty, especially as it would have to go in the living room!

Was planning on having lots of emergent foliage so I can still have some plants and create a pond-y look. In my fantasies of this tank I'd keep a group of dicrossus and some pencilfish.

Love dead leaves, in the back of this tank there is a big pile of magnolia grandiflora leaves, and really want to explore it further in a proper biotope-y blackwater that's all mulmy and rooty.

What different styles have you tried? I'm really intrigued by all the possibilities of blackwater!
I have played around with all sorts. They are easier to manage than a high tech tank. Originally my tank was high tech, but once I learned the process, I lost interest. Trimming stems and cleaning algae became tiresome.

I like the style with emergent growth above water. Like you said you get the nice green color above the water. Your family will like that style better. My friends and family were not impressed with my “box of dirt and leaves”. But I liked it!

the next black water tank I am going to try and grow Ficus and some ferns above water.
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
What do you mean by that?
I think he is referring to the aquascape stuff. Its kind of a trend now to do black water tanks with emergent plants growing on driftwood at the top. Some call it a pond style tank…

funny. Apistogramma folks have been throwing leaves and stuff in tanks for a long time. But the trend has caught on now.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I think he is referring to the aquascape stuff. Its kind of a trend now to do black water tanks with emergent plants growing on driftwood at the top. Some call it a pond style tank…

funny. Apistogramma folks have been throwing leaves and stuff in tanks for a long time. But the trend has caught on now.
I see. I just copied zoo exhibits I saw as a kid. Lately somebody told me this was scaping and I was confused.

photo_2021-10-28_11-48-54.jpg
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Thanks. :) Haven't even noticed (no instagram or facebook and I don't watch the big fishtubers).
Thats a good thing. I need to quit myself, giant time sink for very little gain. Instagram is OK for searching things like #blackwateraquarium and seeing the cool stuff people have done.

I may start day 1 of youtube detox today lol.
 

shangman

New Member
Messages
16
What do you mean by that?
Ah, there is a simple answer... I'm dyslexic, and read the below out of order as "several styles of these tanks" and wondered what that could mean. Thought maybe different regions of blackwater or something!
I have been through several of these style tanks in my 100p.

I think he is referring to the aquascape stuff. Its kind of a trend now to do black water tanks with emergent plants growing on driftwood at the top. Some call it a pond style tank…

funny. Apistogramma folks have been throwing leaves and stuff in tanks for a long time. But the trend has caught on now.

I do like the "pond style", I've only been in the hobby for a bit over a year, and my favourite tank so far is still <Tom's Poco Pozo on UKAPS>, it really transformed for me what an aquarium could be.

Personally I do not consider myself a true/classic aquascaper as while the style is very nice, I don't like how clean and "perfect" they are meant to be... much prefer a bit of mulm, lots of leaves and sticks and things in there, some feeling of nature that seems missing in the aquascaping style. I do love growing plants though!

I know a few classic aquascapers and often they seem to think about the fish last - as a decoration to finish the tank - whereas I think about the fish first and how I can make a beautiful tank which they thrive in. There's a clear change when I put in lots of dead leaves and twigs in - all the fish become markedly more confident and active, all my fish seem to eat, hide and hunt in them. If this is becoming a trend it's a good thing for the creatures, and if they can show more people that it's beautiful and attractive even more so!

I have played around with all sorts. They are easier to manage than a high tech tank. Originally my tank was high tech, but once I learned the process, I lost interest. Trimming stems and cleaning algae became tiresome.

I like the style with emergent growth above water. Like you said you get the nice green color above the water. Your family will like that style better. My friends and family were not impressed with my “box of dirt and leaves”. But I liked it!

the next black water tank I am going to try and grow Ficus and some ferns above water.

Thank goodness they are easier than high-tech, I 100% couldn't have more than one hightech... a great learning experience, but I think the lowtechs are just as enjoyable with a lot less faff. I have never done more swearing than in the set up of it!

I think you're right, the family will much prefer it with emergent growth. The only place for the tank to go is in front of a big window where some big houseplants are now, so if there's emergent growth I think it will go well with the remaining houseplants and not seem like such a big loss. Also since it's in front of a window, as it's blackwater I won't mind if there's algae in it. I'm pitching it as a shrine to nature :)

All my tanks so far have emergent growth and something about it is so natural and joyful, the plants can't be contained! In the tank above I just recently planted an echinodorous palaefolius and echinodorous cordifolius to emerge out of the back (hopefully). My fish seem to become a lot more confident and use all the tank when there's a nice layer of plants right at the top, I mix up floating plants and emergents and it's very pretty as well as good habitat. Emergent growth + dead leaves seems to be a fabulous combination!

I see. I just copied zoo exhibits I saw as a kid. Lately somebody told me this was scaping and I was confused.

View attachment 10699
This is lovely!! Hydrocotyle is such a great plant when it's allowed to just float on the surface and crawl out. I also have it in this big tank and it's taking over in a really cool way. It would grow even better if the greenfly didn't find it so delicious.

IMG_6649.jpg
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Ah, there is a simple answer... I'm dyslexic, and read the below out of order as "several styles of these tanks" and wondered what that could mean. Thought maybe different regions of blackwater or something!
Ah, then you mean different blackwater biotope or habitat types. Like Igapo (flooded forests), Igarape (blackwater creeks and tributaries), or an Indonesian Peat Bog. There are indeed several different types and some forms inbetween.
This is lovely!! Hydrocotyle is such a great plant when it's allowed to just float on the surface and crawl out. I also have it in this big tank and it's taking over in a really cool way. It would grow even better if the greenfly didn't find it so delicious.
Thanks! And yes, Hydrocotyle tends to just wither or stagnate when planted in substrate and kept underwater completely, bt the moment it hits the surface - booom! Growth explosion! :D
 

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