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Can apisto species in the same group cross breed ?

anewbie

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I'm trying to figure out if wolli can cross breed with nijenssi. I'm planning a large tank and want to keep a couple of apisto species that cannot cross breed. I have a partial liking to nijennsi but unsure who else to add; was thinking elizabeth but might be safer with another species that form tight bond. I do realize that nijjensii can be a bit aggressive but the aquarium will have 12 sqft of space and well landscaped.
 

Mike Wise

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Yes, members of the same species group will cross, especially if there are no other members of the same species. Even if there are, crosses occur if males of one species is dominant.
 

anewbie

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Is it only species of the same group that can cross; or is the limit in complex or across all apisto ?
 

MacZ

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I think the chances grow with the conditions. Deliberately putting mixed sex groups of different species together already raises the chances. If the tank is relatively small the probability might grow some more, add maybe a limited number of caves and you get another contributing factor. And if the competition pressure between the males (and females for that matter) is high, you end up with even a higher chance.

I have had Malawi cichlids hybridise I didn't expect to, so why should Apistos be that different?
 

anewbie

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I think the chances grow with the conditions. Deliberately putting mixed sex groups of different species together already raises the chances. If the tank is relatively small the probability might grow some more, add maybe a limited number of caves and you get another contributing factor. And if the competition pressure between the males (and females for that matter) is high, you end up with even a higher chance.

I have had Malawi cichlids hybridise I didn't expect to, so why should Apistos be that different?
Well it comes down to genetics; even if the fishes desire to crossbreed if the genes are sufficiently different it would not be possible. That was the basis to my question if the organization of the different trees was based on actual genetics and if i could count on a certain distance in the tree being sufficient to prevent successful crossbreeding.

From Frank's comment it sounds like the organization of genus is not strictly based off the genetic makeup and therefore I cannot assume at any point successful crossbreeding cannot occur.

From your comment @MacZ you keep pencil fishes with your apisto; and I presume you assume they will not crossbreed but if you only kept males of one species and females of the others would you assume they would crossbreed ? Of course not - but at what point can be safe that genetics between any two fishes is diverse enough to prevent crossbreeding? Is it the genus? Is it the family ? Is it the order? Do we expect our dogs to crossbreed with our cats ?
 

MacZ

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From your comment @MacZ you keep pencil fishes with your apisto; and I presume you assume they will not crossbreed but if you only kept males of one species and females of the others would you assume they would crossbreed ? Of course not - but at what point can be safe that genetics between any two fishes is diverse enough to prevent crossbreeding? Is it the genus? Is it the family ? Is it the order? Do we expect our dogs to crossbreed with our cats ?
I'm a bit confused. You mean the pencils crossbreeding with other pencil species? Unlikely because the breeding behaviour of my N. eques is very different from the other species of the genus.

As for cichlids the courtship behaviour and the colouration can be the divisive. My Malawi cichlids back then were both mouthbrooders and from the same genus. In that regard Malawi cichlids are an exemption, they diversified in relatively short time.

Genetically the genus level is usually the decisive one when it comes to hybridisation, but never the order and very, very rarely family or subfamily group.

Do we expect our dogs to crossbreed with our cats ?
Come on, that's ridiculous. :D
 

Mike Wise

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anewbie, you seem to be set on keeping similar species together. That is your choice. I would never knowingly acquire - or sell - fish to someone wanting to do this. That's just me and my choice.

What is or is not a species depends on who you ask. Right now there is no officially accepted definition for what is a species. Apistogramma specie in particular exhibit so many (genetic) cryptic species that taxonomists are separating out forms that are virtually indistinguishable to me! See: Estivals, Guillain, Fabrice Duponchelle, Uwe Römer, Carmen Garcís-Dávia, Etienne Airola, Margot Deléglise and Jean?François Renno. 2020. The Amazonian dwarf cichlid Apistogramma agassizii (Steindachner, 1875) is a geographic mosaic of potentially tens of species: Conservation implications. Aquatic Conservation: Marine and Freshwater Systems. John Wiley & Sons Ltd.
 

anewbie

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Well I'm not set on it 100% but if i do so i want to make sure they can co-exist in harmony and not cross breed. I am of course a bit confused by your view and I am also a bit confused as to what happens in the wild as I would presume that at least some of these fishes co-exist in wild. I also presume that 12sqft is sufficient space but perhaps I am wrong on all accounts.
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Most people keep the fishes in cramp containers where the idea of multiple species or multiple members of the same species is asking for conflict and that is not my objective.
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I've followed @MacZ posting here and elsewhere for a while and I've noticed that he frequently has problem with the male killing the female something I've never seen even when I've kept the same species as him. While he is far more experience than I am my guess it all boils down to size of the container as his aquarium is fairly small but again i am perhaps mistaken.
 
Last edited:

MacZ

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I've followed @MacZ posting here and elsewhere for a while and I've noticed that he frequently has problem with the male killing the female something I've never seen even of the same species. While he is far more experience than I am my guess it all boils down to size of the container as his aquarium is fairly small but again i am perhaps mistaken.
Frequently? Bringing it up, yes, maybe. Having the problem myself: Once. The A. ortegai was killed, the A. hongsloi died of the injuries sustained in an accident while being chased. After that I decided to keep only single Apistogramma until I have a bigger tank, though admittedly, I am for one not keen on breeding and secondly more of a biotope aquarist, not a collector. Right now the tank is, although stocked with a single Apistogramma among others, a Nannostomus species tank.
 

anewbie

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Frequently? Bringing it up, yes, maybe. Having the problem myself: Once. The A. ortegai was killed, the A. hongsloi died of the injuries sustained in an accident while being chased. After that I decided to keep only single Apistogramma until I have a bigger tank, though admittedly, I am for one not keen on breeding and secondly more of a biotope aquarist, not a collector. Right now the tank is, although stocked with a single Apistogramma among others, a Nannostomus species tank.
I apologize and should not have said frequently. I was aware of both the hongsloi and ortegai. My hongsloi have not suffered injuries as the females have room to escape - it is not that i am a good fish keeper it is that my aquarium is larger i believe as the male does chase both females out of his area when they are not ready to breed. I have had fish develop bloat which I presume is either from stress or water condition being non optimal (kh 3 gh 7 tds 120).
 

MacZ

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Thanks for the apology, you've got a PM on that. ;)

I think your dropsy problem is due to a mix of factors not just one. They add up usually.
 

anewbie

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I think there is some confusion in the way I asked my question. In asking if two specific species apisto could cross breed in my original post I was trying to ensure that the species i selected would be unable to cross breed and was looking for a method to guarantee that cross breeding if it did occur would be unsuccessful (i.e, the comment about how diverse the genetic makeup needs to be to prevent successful crossbreeding). I suppose I should have made the original post more concise.
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So to rephrase my question is there a reliable way to select two species that cannot successfully crossbreed.
 

Mike Wise

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So to rephrase my question is there a reliable way to select two species that cannot successfully crossbreed.
Yes, select species that are from different species-groups (A. nijsseni & A. wolli are in the same species-group) and are as different in appearance as possible.
 

Tom C

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In 2011, I collected fish in this stream, not far from Jenaro Herrera in Peru:

resizeimage.aspx


I got two species of Apistogramma in the net:

resizeimage.aspx


The big one is A. nijsseni. The smaller ones used to be labelled A. (cf.) agassizii (Jenaro Herrera),
but as a result of the genetic studies of Estival et al. 2020 (see Mike's post), they should be labelled
A. sp. aff. agassizii (Jenaro Herrera), or even: "Cluster 1 (Estivals et al. 2020)".

The two species shared a habitat which is several kilometers long, 1.5 (dry season) to 3-100 (rain season) meters wide, and 0,5 (dry season) to 1,5 (rain season) meters deep.

I collected the two species quite close to each other, and I did not observe any specimens looking like
a mix of the two species, so I believe the chances of them hybridizing is fairly low.

So, if you insist on combining Apistogramma nijsseni with another Apistogramma species, I would try an A. agassizii-like form. (provided that your tank is properly decorated with lots of hiding places, lots of structure, dim lighting, and fine-grained sand with withered leaves on top).

And please include in the assessment: Your aquarium has "12 sqft of space", that is around 1.1 square meters. Males of species in the A.-nijsseni-group have been observed claiming, and violently defending, more than 2 square meters as their own territory. So you'll have no guarantee that both/all the males survive...
 

anewbie

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Hum. Ok. I had some nijjensi in a 29 (the male died over a year ago of bloat but the female is still in the aquarium with the hongsloi) and the specific one i had didn't seem that territorial (i mean didn't seem to claim the entire aquarium but it is good to know as I will have to take that into account. I'll post a follow up when i'm closer to selecting the second species to see if it is a reasonable mix. Maybe I'll just go with elizabeth or hongsloi. My hongsloi male has no red (i'm not sure what you call those) but he is a charmer. I've had him about 20 months now. I'm pretty sure it is safe to mix hongsloi and nijjensi as the female I have will have nothing to do with hongsloi.

The picture of the nijjensi you posted seem a little different than the male I had but maybe it is stress? This is the one I had:
nijesseni.jpg
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If there is violence I can move the 2nd group to a 29 that i keep in the basement so I won't leave them together if the nijjensi end up claiming the entire aquarium.
 

aarhud

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I have mixed species in the past. I have never found they complimented each other. If I had room for two species, the tank was more enjoyable if I just upped the number of females of a single species.

I was mixing in a 6’ tank.

I wont mix species anymore. Unless its a grow out situation, but would still prefer to keep them apart.
 

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