Sick Apisto and stressed apisto keeper NEED HELP

[ericric38]

hi my name is eric, posted here once before in January regarding a sick apisto agassizii that has pass away and now regarding another, or maybe perhaps 2 sick male apistos.

long story short, in january, i was housing 2 pairs of apisto's for a friend as he was having trouble with the fishes health. confident as i was with my tank conditions, i agreed to house them. and at the end of january, the male aggassizii passed away (not in tank, but in a med bath), and returned the other pair of apisto to my frd which is still doing fine.

weeks later, after rescapping my planted tank to a much more foresty look (for more hiding spots). i decided to get a pair of apisto iniridae. the pair did very well in my tank. they were relaxed and swam happliy around the tank. the male was very dominant. it would chase around the female all the way from one side of the tank to the other. no clamped fins, no twitching or scratching. at times you can see the discoloration but i always thought it was due to mood when he chases the female.

after 2 weeks, I decided to get another pair of apisto, this time a pair of similar sized super red aggassizii. the main reason why i decided to get another pair was i thought this will ease the tension between the iniridae pair. but it hasnt done much. for the first 1.5 weeks the male aggassizii hid in the forest and never came out to feed. but while he hid, there was not sign of clamped fins or stress. after 1.5 weeks, it decided to come out and currently feeds very well, and i can proudly say he is the most healthy fish in the tank to date. both aggassizi and iniridae got along with each other and was never in each other's face

A week later, i made an impulse by on another pair of apisto yellow Aggassizzi, popped them in the tank, there were the usual chasing and bully of the new fish but the existing fish all seemed very social, all got along and show little to no stresss. apparet from the male iniridae, he just cant stop chasing the female iniridae around. The yellow aggassizi was doing great, no clamped fins, ate well, hid most the time, but no thrashing, twitching etc. I just assume it would need more time to adjust to the tank conditions. surely enough, it came out occsionally to feed and show off its colors will it checks chased back to bushes

now last weekend, i again made another purchase, another slightly larger sized pair of apisto (dont have an ID yet). This is when im having alot of problems. the second day i introduced the Apisto's with no ID, my male iniridae started to show signs of stress. he turned completely black, clamped fins, twitching pelvic and dorsal fins, scratching against wood and gravel, and not moving. i noticed this immediately and place him into another tank ive been running, i have thought about using meds but i wasnt sure if it was stress, fungus or parasites, so i decided to go with the basic clean water treatment (ro water)

Just now, after coming home from a dinner, i found my newest pair of apisto (no ID yet) is expereincing the same sympotms as my male iniridae!

I need serious help here. I love all my fish and i really hate to see them die. PLease any help is appreciated. I feel just as stressed as they are right now, cause i honestly dont want to see a perfectly looking fish go. Please let me know if you need any further information regarding my tank or symptoms. i will try to be as detailed as possible for the sake of their health. THANKS


info on the tank:
25 gallon heavily planted tank
gravel: ADA amazonia
the tank as been up and running for about a year
water change weekly with RO/DI water 25-50%
ferts: seachem trace and ada ECA
pressurized co2
t5ho 24w x 4, on for 10 hrs a day
ammonia: 0
nitrates: 10-20ppm
ph: 6.8
gh:3-4 degrees
Temp: 26 degrees C

test kits from api

 

[Mike Wise]

Sorry to read of your problems. The first thing I noticed was that you do not quarantine your fish. I quarantine all of my fish in a bare quarantine tank for at least 4 weeks before even thinking of adding them to one of my other tanks. This is especially important in a planted tank, where medications can cause problems with plants. The second thing I notice is that your tank is entirely too small for all of the apistos that you tried to put into it. Apistos are cichlids and like most cichlids are very territorial. I see very few available territories in you aquarium - which in my opinion is only 'heavily planted' on the right side. Add to this the fact that any territory in the aquarium was already taken by the earlier fish. Adding new fish to the mix means re-establishing territories and dominance among the fish. This is a stressful situation for the fish. Stress is the leading cause for fish catching a disease.

Personally, all that I can suggest is to let the tank situation settle itself. You will probably lose some fish in the process. Just keep up maintenance and hope for the best. If you want more than a pair/trio of apistos in this size of a tank, you should really consider adding more territories. Breaking up the line of sight of the aquarium and adding decor to make distinct boundaries is important. I really suggest that you plant the left side of the tank similar to the right side.

 

[ericric38]

Thank mike for responding so promptly at my post. I understand that many out there, and often time suggested on forums that we quarantine our fish. i guess im learning it the hard way as diseases never really occurred back when i kept goldfish. apisto's now are definately in a different league. the requirements and attention is totally different. i will turn one of my existing tanks into a quarantine tank starting from now and hope that will help with the disease.

thank you mike for noticing the left side of the tank now being as heavily planted as the right. this picutre was taken after i planted the left with similar background plant as the right. however, for some odd reason, the plant started to grow side ways, as if my light was pushing the plant down, this calls for plant shopping this weekend. but ultimately you are right, i should vegetate the left side of the tank more to provide more hiding spots and the breaking of the line of sight. im working on it

however mike, i have several questions to ask you...

1. according to my description, do you think there is a lurking disease in my tank? or is it a stress issue? with all due honestly, when i started to keep apisto's i kept them in an iwagumi plant set up with zero hiding spots. and i keep more than one pair...unfortunately

2. now that i have witnessed 2 males whom have displayed discoloration, twitching, scratching, clamped fins, motionless and even to what it seems like extra white slim on body, can this be reversable? I have several 5g buckets i can transfer them to, would it help if i did that? house them in 5g with ro water, power head and airpump? do you have expereince in calming apisto's that way? i wanna stay away from meds as i read this will weaken the fish further.

3. the sick apistos are, from what i see, the more dominant ones. they show agression towards others that passes by infront of them. does that mean they are dominant? why are they the first to get sick and to suffer from stress? where as the other who used to be chased down initially, are doing fine now?

Thank you once again for your opinions on this matter. i really appreciate your help, and in helping me become a better apisto keeper

 

[gerald]

Diseases that can cause twitching and scratching could be gill flukes, protozoan parasites, possibly others.

 

[ericric38]

Diseases that can cause twitching and scratching could be gill flukes, protozoan parasites, possibly others.

Thanks Gerald for your input. Given my current situation, what do you suggest i do with both fish and my current tank? Please i really want to help them out.

Thanks you!

 

[Mike Wise]

1. according to my description, do you think there is a lurking disease in my tank? or is it a stress issue? with all due honestly, when i started to keep apisto's i kept them in an iwagumi plant set up with zero hiding spots. and i keep more than one pair...unfortunately

There is no aquarium that does not have a disease organism in it. Our fish do not live in a sterile environment. Our fish have immune systems that keep diseases at bay most of the time. When some kind of stress occurs, be it environmental or social, this affects the immune system and lessens a fish's ability to resist infection. In your case, my guess is that your problem is the social stress on the fish. Each fish tries to establish a territory in a tank that does not have enough territories for all. Once stressed, the fish - often the one's most dominant and trying to defend an already established territory - are the ones that are most stressed and become sick. Lower stress levels typically means less sickness. This is why a tank cannot house the same number of territorial apistos as it can more social (schooling) species.

2. now that i have witnessed 2 males whom have displayed discoloration, twitching, scratching, clamped fins, motionless and even to what it seems like extra white slim on body, can this be reversable? I have several 5g buckets i can transfer them to, would it help if i did that? house them in 5g with ro water, power head and airpump? do you have expereince in calming apisto's that way? i wanna stay away from meds as i read this will weaken the fish further.

The best method to cure the fish (since you and I have no idea what disease they have) is to put them in a low stress environment that has optimum water quality. I rarely medicate unless I know for certain what is causing the disease. If you want you can use a broad spectrum shotgun approach, but I rarely am successful with this. I sometimes think that it stresses the fish even more. For me I use a quarantine tank. My suggestion for a good quarantine tanks typically is one that is bare, with only pieces of plastic pipe for hiding (easy to sterilize); dim (or no) lighting, in a low traffic area (preferably above shoulder height), a slow bubble air-driven sponge filter (again easily sterilized) and a heat source.

3. the sick apistos are, from what i see, the more dominant ones. they show agression towards others that passes by infront of them. does that mean they are dominant? why are they the first to get sick and to suffer from stress? where as the other who used to be chased down initially, are doing fine now?

See comment in #1

 

[gerald]

Something with metronidazole, praziquantel, or flubendazole might help (API General Cure is one), but like Mike says its a shot in the dark if you cant ID the disease, and reducing stress and providing good water quality and diet are key to the med's success.

 

[ericric38]

Mike and Gerald, I cant thank you both for your comments. I have read alot about apisto behavior lately and am starting to understand how to approach my current situation.

2 days ago, i have moved my apisto iniridae into another tank (quarantine tank with no apistos) and last couple times i check, he was doing fine, no more clamped fins and was swimming around quite happily from what i see. it was eating and seemed more relaxed. I have 2 sae's, 2 BNP and 5 other fishes in there. The think im bit concerned is, it still has a bit of white slime on the body and i think his lips are a bit white (not fuzzy, just white). but does not appear to be fungus. his dorsal fin and pelvic fin twitched a bit and scratched his body on the pvc elbows ive put in for him to hide in (once or twice maybe). does this mean he is still stressed?

Since the tank is now serving as a recovery place for the apisto iniridae, ive taken out my newest pair of apisto;s and put them in a breeding basket for now (in the quarantine tank). Im thinking later tonight when i get home, I will partition the quarantine in half so both pairs of apisto can recover there. Does this sound like a good idea? I am aware of the line of sight issue. so i will try to keep them from seeing each other.

Thanks again Mike and Gerald for responding to me and opinions, I really appreciate it! I will try to get some pix of them so you guys can have a better idea of everything in the morning.

 

[gerald]

I hope you put some pvc pipes or clay pot shards or something similar to hide in, in the breeder basket. No dark shelter = severe stress to a dwarf cichlid. Cloudy film on body is often a protozan infestation: Trichodina, Chilodonella, Ichthyobodo (Costia) are some of the common ones. Might also be from
bacteria (especially Flexibacter, aka Columnaris), or any irritant (biological or chemical) that induces excessive skin mucus production. Flexibacter either kills quickly or it goes away - not usually a lingering disease.

 

[ericric38]

Gerald, this past week i have partitioned my brother's extra tank. I have placed 2 DIY separators into the tank and have housed the 3 problematic apisto's into their own space. I must say this has done wonders to their stress levels etc.

I just took these pictures and this is what my quarantine tank looks like now

I have also id'ed my unidentify apisto. from the left we have apistogramma iniridae, in the middle and on the right, we have 2 male apistogramma uaupesi's.

They have been in this se up for 2 days now. so far ive seen alot of positive changes. no more tucked fin twitching or extra slime. however, they spend most their time in their pvc pipe and colors arent as vibrant. they are either colorless or sometimes have patches of black on body. since its been only 2 days. they havent been eating much. I feed cichlid food from tropical and hikari dried brine shrimp (i have frozen ones too, havent tried those yet)

can you guys shed any light on their coloration? thanks!

 

[Mike Wise]

The colors they now show are normal for an apisto kept in a small area with few hiding places and nothing covering the surface of the water. Once given a suitably large aquarium with proper decor and some floating plant, they will color up again. Additionally, dry foods are not readily eaten by most apistos. Definitely feed at least frozen foods.

 

[ericric38]

The colors they now show are normal for an apisto kept in a small area with few hiding places and nothing covering the surface of the water. Once given a suitably large aquarium with proper decor and some floating plant, they will color up again. Additionally, dry foods are not readily eaten by most apistos. Definitely feed at least frozen foods.

Thanks Mike! Regarding tank size and decor, I was wondering if its possible that i keep them in this set up. I am saying this because i honestly dont think i will be setting up another tank anytime soon. would this partition method be ok with my apisto's? I mean ultimately i just want to keep them happy and healthy. I dont think im ready to do any breeding with my fish as i dont know how to. but however, i will try to include some more low light plants for them so they can feel more like home. What do you think?

Thanks again Mike!

 

[Mike Wise]

Certainly, they will 'live' in such cramped quarters. I don't know if they will be very happy and show off very well. Think about how you would feel living in only a 10x10'/3x3m room.

 

[gerald]

I big bunch of javamoss, guppy-grass, elodea or hornwort in each section would help their comfort level (and consume ammonium).

 

[ericric38]

Certainly, they will 'live' in such cramped quarters. I don't know if they will be very happy and show off very well. Think about how you would feel living in only a 10x10'/3x3m room.

i understand, but i will have them housed like this until i find another spot to run a new tank. im not sure how happy they are, but they seem to be doing ok. appart from the less vibrate colors, they started to take in some frozen brine shrimp last night with is a good sign.

I big bunch of javamoss, guppy-grass, elodea or hornwort in each section would help their comfort level (and consume ammonium).

Thanks Gerald. i have live plants in each partition and the plants are growing. weekly tests are conducted every week to ensure pristine water conditions. I'll try to toss in more moss this weekend hopefully


Thank you guys for all your great advice!