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Preparing for apisto cacatuoides, Questions

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
Hi, while I have a decade and a half experience with aquaria, I am completely new to apistos. I have one pair of apisto cacauoides arriving next week and I am trying to set up my 18 gallon tank for their arrival.

I have a couple pieces of driftwood that have curves on their bottom that shape nicely like caves. I see that most people use these little clay pots but I have an aversion to artificial objects in my tank and would like to make the driftwood work. I have pretty much complete control over how large the cave is, and the opening for that matter by hollowing out the space in the substrate. What would a good size be for the inside of the cave and the opening? Will they spawn in a driftwood cave like this?

As far as dither fish, is there anything other than pencilfish that will work and not cause problems with fry? I have nothing against pencilfish, but neither my LFS or Petco have them at this time. I have neon tetras in another tank that I could move over without having to worry about QT, but appears that I am being told that they are not good for this.

About water, I have hard water with high pH coming from the tap. I also have a RO filter. In my other tanks I am in the habit of mixing tap and RO 50/50 generally giving me a pH around 7.2/7.4. I had an understanding that pure RO was bad for fish (and plants), but on one of apistodave's websites he mentioned briefly using pure RO. I do have a bottle of Seachem Replenish that I bought and never used. Anyone have any opinions on what would be the best approach between tap/RO/replenish, I do need to consider the plants as well.

I could probably ask questions all day, but no one would read far enough to answer them all, so I will end with a rather trivial one. Will a couple platys cause a problem or should I move them, they've been happily keeping this tank cycled. Plants make it hard for me to catch and move fish once everything is set up.
 

bseitz234

Member
Messages
67
Location
Blacksburg, VA, USA
Generally, most apistos seem to prefer more of a cave than a driftwood overhang. That said, if it's all that's available, I'm sure they'll use it as a spawning surface. Have you considered half coconut shells? Those can make a good alternative to a clay pot. Kind of gives you an idea on size, too.

If you're hoping for fry, you could try a hatchetfish species for dither, as they probably won't pay much attention to what's below them. Just make sure you can cover your tank pretty tightly. And I think people have actually had success with black neons, although I've never tried this combo myself.

If they're a tank strain of cacatuoides, and not wild-caught, they'll probably do fine in that water. What's your KH with that 50/50 mix? That's generally more important than pH. And pure RO may not be great for plants, but I bet the apistos would be happy enough in a 95/5 mix of RO/tap, if you wanted to go that far. The conductivity values from where these fish are caught can be crazy low.

Platies generally prefer harder, more alkaline water than apistos. I don't know how they'd be around fry, but generally people who tailor their water conditions to the apistos find that livebearers survive, but never thrive.
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
KH
9 tap
4 50/50 RO and tap
2 from the tank

The fish are "Apistogramma cacatuoides Blue CF F1," what I understand to be the progeny of wild cacatuiodes - from David Soares (apistodave)

I don't understand KH enough to understand where it goes once it is in the tank, but there it is.

Think I might go with to 80/20 RO to tap see if that causes problems with the plants. Is there a product that adds what plants need from water that would allow me to use nearly pure RO. I am already dosing Seachem Flourish, but I'm not sure what else is in tap water that plants require.
 

bseitz234

Member
Messages
67
Location
Blacksburg, VA, USA
Sounds good, if you can keep it around 2 in the tank, that's a great value. And if they're coming from Apistodave, they might appreciate a little lower pH, since that's what they're used to. Try adding some peat to your filter cartridge- that might stain your water a bit, but will bring your pH down. Usually it can bring KH down too, but yours is pretty low already. And 80/20 sounds like a good mix. Seachem also makes Flourish Nitrogen, Flourish Potassium, and Flourish Phosphorous, which are the big three. I usually find that fish provide plenty of nitrogen, and there's phosphate in most prepared fish foods, but potassium can be a limiting factor. There's also Flourish Excel, which is kind of a substitute for CO2 injection. It's unrelated to the nutrients/RO theme, but still helps plant growth a lot. And congrats- I've seen his videos of those, they're beautiful fish!!
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
I decided I can would put in this cichlid stone I found in my old aquarium stuff from a krib I had 10 years back. I guess it's better to keep the apistos happy than satisify my desire to keep everything natural. Maybe it will attract some algae and look a little more natural.

My tank is rather narrow and tall, was wondering if a pair of dwarf gourami could satisfy the role of dither fish and leave apisto fry alone. I've had these gouramis before and I can't imagine them hunting around the lower levels of the tank for fry.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
If your tank is an 18 show (20x10x20") then its rather small, but doable for a pair of apistos if you keep an eye pealed for aggression between the fish. Usually I find dwarf gouramies fine with dwarf cichlids, but in a small tank I don't know how it would work.
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
If your tank is an 18 show (20x10x20") then its rather small, but doable for a pair of apistos if you keep an eye pealed for aggression between the fish. Usually I find dwarf gouramies fine with dwarf cichlids, but in a small tank I don't know how it would work.

Yes, I was aware that I was at the low end as far as size, but from what I have gleaned from all my reading that it was fine for one pair long if the tank layout was complex with some sort of divisions. I have all kind of nooks and crannies in the driftwood and a dense row of large java ferns across each piece of wood effectively separating the tank in three sections. Many other plants around as well including a willow hygro which from my experience will quickly take over the tank.

I just picked up some black neons. Out of all the suggested dither fish they were the only ones I could find locally.

About filtration, I am trying to apply all the advice here as well. My current filter is horrible, so I ordered a Finnex mini canister filter and plan to put purigen and now peat into it. I have heard that apistos benefit from having finer mechanical filter media. I have the typical bonded blue/white filter pad, is there something better to use?

Thanks for all your help
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
IMHO, yes, a sponge filter is better only because of the low water flow rate. Apistos really don't care for high water flow. In a small/tall tank air driven filters are a problem; hard to pump air at such depths and take up more space. The one advantage is that fry will graze micro-organisms off of the sponge. If you can lower the flow rate on your canister it should be OK, but you'll need to cover the water intake when fry appear or you'll suck many of them in. I learned that the hard way 30 years ago with a batch of Common Krib fry. Lost about 80-90% of them.
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
The pantyhose over the intake should solve the sucked up fry problem. I don't have the filter in hand yet, but I would think that the outflow coming through the spray bar like this filter would solve most of the flow rate problems. There are a number of ways on the betta forums I frequent on how to baffle the flow out; bettas don't like current, perhaps even more than apistos.
 

MonteSS

Member
Messages
282
I was very interested in the blue Cacs that Dave has as well as the blue Aggessizi, but thought that my 7.2 ph would not be ideal for them.

I went with a pair of Orange flash in the 24" 26g instead.I am sure they are plenty of generations feom wild.

Would love to see some pics when they settle in and grow out.

....Bill
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
I'm not familiar with orange flash, would be interested in seeing those.

I'm sure I will be posting pictures once they get settled. I've gotten my water down to 7.0 pH using 80% RO but I have some peat coming with the new filter so I should be dial in the pH where ever I want, although I'm not sure exactly what pH I should be aiming for. I don't think using a mini canister will be too much of a problem, in this tall tank I can probably contain any turbulence to the upper section of the tank and it is only 95g/hour anyway.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Will either of these work? I already use these in other filters and have them on hand.
You could try wrapping them around and fastening them with a cable tie, bu they are really too fine.
You need sponge rather than floss.

I don't know what you can get in the USA, and this won't help because they are a UK seller, but these sort of sponges <http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/Filter_sponges.htm>. I know you can buy Foam Blocks from Swiss Tropicals in the US.
Swiss Tropicals: <[url]http://www.swisstropicals.com/Poret%20Filter%20Foam.html[/URL]>

cheers Darrel
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
Interesting, I was thinking that the blue bonded pad would be too coarse, but I have never seen one these sponges in my hand before. There are entirely too many options at that swisstopicals.com. What exactly am I wanting? Or will something like this work from a normal pet store: http://www.thatpetplace.com/filter-foam This is the filter, picture of the intake is below (intake is on top, outlet-spraybar is on bottom

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002VFF8U4/ref=pe_385040_30332190_pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_2

31K-uQbRcvL.jpg
 
Last edited:

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Looking at what other people bought with your Finnex filter it looks like these "Fluval Edge" pre-filter sponges that most people have bought <http://www.amazon.com/Pre-Filter-Sponge-Pack-Fluval-Aquarium/dp/B004K9A15G/ref=pd_sim_petsupplies_2>.

The round ones (from here) should also be fine. <http://www.thatpetplace.com/filter-foam>. You need to make sure that the central hole is large enough to fit over the intake strainer, then you just slide it over like a sock. If you buy a foam sheet you can make them any size you want (just sew them up with nylon fishing line), or use the 4" square foam blocks from Swiss Tropicals.

I like the coarser PPI10 and PPI20 sponges, but you can use a finer one, you just need to rinse it more often. Because I have a sponge pre-filter, I don't have any mechanical filtration in the filter, I just have the ceramic rings, and fill it no more than 2/3 full.

cheers Darrel
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
Great, I'll try those ones on Amazon, can't beat $5. I see why you don't need much mechanical media in the filter. I am a fan of Purigen so I will probably use that in there and a little of those peat pellets to drop the pH below 7. I'm not sure what the ideal pH is, it shouldn't take much of those peat pellets since 80% RO water has very little buffering. Since these are the offspring of wild apistos I want to try to match the pH and softness of their natural habitat as closely as possible.
 

Cubeology

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
38
Location
Riverside, CA
Thanks, I just reread his article. I think the first time I read it I wasn't aware it was his writing. He has the pH so low, I'll basically figure I'll take it as low as it will go with peat without worrying about overshooting the mark. Thanks for all your help, I'm as ready as possible their arrival.
 

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