more is not better

[aspen]

i think that i've come to the conclusion that a successful apisto tank has a single species of dwarf cichlid, with a single male. my most successful efforts seem to be a tank constructed with this in mind. my cacatoides tank seems very nice, a 35 gal with 1 male, 4 females, and some tetras and some dwarf plecos. breeding seems to be imminent, with a couple of the females getting yellow and gravid. my worst experience was with my tank full of mixed apistos. aggression got the best of most of my males in that tank, and i feel that more is not better when dealing with apistos.

at the moment i have quite a number of smaller tanks, 5, 10 and a 15 gal, with pairs or trios, with none of the agression problems i've had in the past.

anybody want to comment on this?

rick

 

[Randall]

Mixing Apistos

Dear Rick,

I couldn't agree with you more. From my experience, unless the tank is HUGE, mixing apisto species pairs and/or housing mutliple males of the same species in the same quarters can lead to social difficulties.

Randall Kohn

 

[2la]

I've been trying to tell this to people on another forum for the past two years now. No doubt there are people out there who are keeping multiple species and males together in the same tank without incurring any losses, but these are the exceptions that prove the rule. Keeping species that occur sympatrically in the natural state isn't so easily duplicated in the closed confines of the average hobbyist's aquarium without running into aggression issues. I also prefer not to keep rams with apistos.

 

[aspen]

i got my first ram pair from a guy who had 3 pairs of rams in a 100 gal fully planted tank, that was 'too small'. the pair in the middle was getting it from both sides. they laid eggs in a 10 gal 3 days after he gave them to me.

rick

 

[Neil]

I agree. Under perfect conditions it would be best to give a single pair or trio of Apistogramma a 55g or better. However, speaking from experience, there have been so many times that I set-up 2 different species in a smaller tank (20L for example) and witnessed a spectrum of remarkable behavior, breeding of both species and very little measurable violence. Again, it is best to give the best conditions and the most space possible to any fish. But, there are so many variables and dynamics at work that it is impossible to make a blanket statement about what is the best way to do things. I have worked so hard on some species only to get poor results, until I gave up on them and put them in with others in closer quarters, only then seeing a good spawn with excellent cooperative parental skills. IME there are no rules, or exceptions to them, when working with Cichlids - only things that have worked more times than not in the past for each aquarist.
That said, I will agree that to treat these fish as well as we can, one should not expose them to problems that can be easily avoided by a little forethought. 2 males of the same species with several gravid females in anything but a huge tank is likely going to provide one of the males with a bad day. But, then again, it could also mean a bad day for the other females or any other tankmates.
Neil

 

[Xanathos]

So it would be better in terms of breeding and agressivty to keep a single male with 2-3 female in a small tank, say a 20 gallons, then keeping 2 males and 4-5 females in a larger tank, like.. a 55 gallons for exemple ?

Philippe

 

[aspen]

that depends on the species. ime, keeping a decent sized male cacatoides with any other males is bad news. also, keeping a pair of viejitas will result in a 'bad day' for all other apistos in the tank, and also for the other fish. borelli's however seem to be fine with their own kind, in a tank with multiple males. the more agressive the species, the more likely someone is going to have a 'bad day'.

i don't have a lot of exp with dwarfs, but only speak from my own limited experience.

if you want a nice display, keeping a dwarf pair or trio, with other species not competing for the same place in the tank, or in the social structure will give much better results. one such situation may be, a single discus, a pair of rams and some hardy tetras, like rummy's. i had that mix going in a planted 20 gal, for some time, and it was attractive and interesting. the workable possibitilies are endless, but the point of my original post, was that the idea of working a s/a cichlid tank like an african cichlid tank, is imo and ime, not feasible. however, as neil points out, stretching this 'rule' (there are no rules really) can and does provide good results. for me however, it did not and i will not do such a thing again.

imo, the rule for a nice display, is that it is workable in the long term, not just a couple of weeks until something jumps out, or dies from agression or stress.

remember, a tank is not like the wild for 2 reasons. one, you wouldn't want the stocking in nature, in your tank. you wouldn't keep more than 2 fish in a 55 gal. second, in a tank, there are glass walls, keeping the fish captive (obviously.) there is no way for a fish to move to the next habitat when a problem ensues. the same agressive fish sees the same fleeing fish again and again, making it more and more agressive.

rick

 

[Minders]

Is a Ram considered an Apisto? I know this probably sounds dumb, but I really don't know. I have a 60gal S.American tank, and I intend to get a pair of Rams and I've seen a nice little fish that I know is an Apisto, though I can't remember the exact species but the females are bright yellow and smaller than the males. Would I be wrong in putting both of these types of fish in my tank? :roll:

 

[aspen]

ask that question when you know exactly what species you are considering. rams and a. borelli's would probably work in your tank. rams and a. cacatoides may not. rams and viejitas is bad news. afaik, all of the apisto species can be described as 'the female is yellow and smaller than the male', when the female is in breeding colours.

also, i would never take the label on a tank of apistos, as the truth about which species is in the tank. ime, 25% of the time, they are mis-labelled. or they may say, 'red wild apisto'. this means nothing, other than that at least they admit they don't know what it is.

btw, a ram used to be called an apisto, you may see the name, 'apistogramma ramierizi' in older references. it is now known NOT to be an apisto, but is known as 'microgeophagus ramierizi'. but as a dwarf cichlid, the characteristics are similar to apistos, except they are open spawners, and not cave or mouth brooding as are most apistos.

rick

 

[Minders]

Thanks for the very informative response. I can't remember exactly what Apisto it was that I was looking at, but I have complete confidence in the guy at my aquarium shop. He really does know his stuff and has never led me astray. I would be very surprised if he ever mislabelled his species. I'm lucky to have access to his experience. It's not like the Wal-mart or PetSmart fish sections where people really don't know what's going on. It's a specialist shop. This guy is extremely knowledgeable about all kinds of fishkeeping, as you would see if you saw his tanks. I've never seen such a variety of fish, from Saltwater to Freshwater. Beautiful. I am going this weekend (to get my Hatchet Fish ) and I will look again at what Apisto it was that I was looking at and check it against the list you've provided. Thanks again for your help.

 

[Boo]

I am keeping a pair of of Triple Reds with a pair of double red Agassizi they seem to do fine in my 135 g. plant tank. It just amazes me how their territorial instincts come out, and is really fun to watch. I have 4 coconut havles and 2 little cave pots, spread out through the tank. My triple red is double the size of the Agassizi But the Agassizi seems to hold his own. I also have 4 turqoise Discus,10 or so gold tetras, i started out with 6 They're just popping out . 2 rubber Plecos, and an African MBU puffer about 7 inches long .Hand fed since he was about 2-3 inches. Dont worry He's really tame.Dont bother none of my fishes. My dwarfs are more aggresive then he is. My Discus just laid their second batch of eggs but seem to eat their eggs, they are not fully matured yet, theyre only about 3 1/2 inches in diam. But I think my dwarfs are breeding as well the females dont seem come out as much and the males are really patroling their territory. I guess i have luck on my side

 

[Neil]

Boo,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

That is a pretty active tank! I would be pretty nervous with that puffer in there, even if he was a good boy! Don't ever forget to feed him 8O.
Neil

 

[Randall]

Poof that Puffer!

Dear BooBoo,

Sounds like you have a most interesting community there. Like Neil says, I'd be very wary of even the most milk toast of African Puffers. They eat dwarf cichlids for lunch.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[Boo]

Dont worry Neil, This is my second Mbu puffer, my last one grew to about 10 inches and was in with my breeding discus with much success. he passed away while I was moving. Dont know what the real cause was but i was really saddened by his death. But on to my new one he has been hand fed since day 1, and I am vert confident he wont harm my other fishes. My Agassizi female has been protecting a large shell in my tank my hunch tells me there might be some eggs in there. She's in there zipping like a bee and doing some head standing. Pushing my Mbu as well.
Calm down guys, I got this covered. If you want to see pics of my Mbu puffer with my Dwarfs and Discus let me know i"ll e-mail it to you.

 

[apistodave]

Well now I agree somewhat! You keep throwing all those other fish in their and they are using up space that could be for apistogramma! My record is a 30 gallon tank with 150 juruensis in it. One big beautiful male and his harem and his kids. you can see his pic on page 513 of Romers Cichlid Atlas (511 also)

 

[Boo]

Well I have a 135 gallon tank that houses these fishes, Thats plenty of room for amount of fish i have. With lots of plants.Am. swords, onion bulbs, Anubius , chain swords, etc. Believe me its ok

 

[Minders]

With reference to my previous questions about housing Rams and Apistos together, I've been to my fish shop and the Apistos I was looking at are Agassizi. Now, bearing in mind my tank is 4ft long, and providing I make sure there are caves at either end, should these two species house together relatively happily?

 

[Neil]

Minders,
It is very likely that a tank of that size can house these 2 species, if they have their respective "side" territories. Once spawning occurs with one of the pairs and the fry are herded around, they may be conflicts though.
Neil

 

[Scooter]

I must say it sounds like my SA community tank is probably the exception rather than the rule. I keep four different species of dwarfs in this 75g, two of which are Apistos. I have agassizis and cacatuoides. The two agassizis are males and the two cacs are a breeding pair. I also have a dwarf pike (Cr. compressiceps) and a single L. dorsiger. The cacs are about to spawn and the male has become very, very belligerent toward the other species. Before, the "king" of the tank was one of the male agassizis. Interestingly enough, the pike by most assumptions would be the community aggressor, but he only gets nasty when he's eating and others invade his "space".

All in all, I've been successful with this set-up. The aggression level never gets to the critical point (or hasn't yet). In fact, the most that has happened is a little bit of brief chasing. So it can be done, but I agree that it takes a larger tank (and the right mix of fish) to be successful keeping mulitiple species. As has been pointed out, there are multiple dynamics involved (not the least of which is the personality of the individual fish). I will say it helps to have a trump card, which in my case is a 6" rainbow shark (yeah, yeah, I know he's not an SA species, but he was beating up too many fish in another tank, so I chose to move him). Anyway, he tolerates no one and chases them all indiscriminately. He's the tank equalizer.