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Mergus Cichlid Atlas II

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by blueblue, Dec 26, 2006.

  1. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I have received and read Uwe's Cichlid Atlas II...
    How about you guys? Do you have any comments/sharings
    after reading it?

    To some extent, i do feel that different methods
    of keeping apistos will lead to very different conclusions
    in many places and some points in the book are highly
    controversial (especially to apisto breeders like me in Asia).
    Moreover, i think the book is published in a hurry as there're
    exceptionally a lot of typos...
  2. retro_gk

    retro_gk New Member

    Messages:
    230
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    What did you find controversial, blueblue?
  3. zmirek

    zmirek Member

    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Szczecin, Poland
    Hi blueblue
    Where did you get it from? Simpson books? I am still looking for best source to get it from.
    Is there many info regarding new species from Rio Negro/Orinoco area? I mean ie sp. Icana, Putzer etc. Are they any results of field research as it was published in CA1? If yes which regions they were executed in? Is there any extended description of biotopes as it was done in CA1?

    So far I have no more questions ;-)

    Any more comments you would like to share with us are welcome
  4. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong

    Hmm, actually, really a lot, for example:

    1. For A. sp. "Brustband" (i used to call it "A. sp.

    "Maulbruter"): The book proposed a hypothesis that

    there are two distinct species: One mouthbrooding,

    one non-moiuhbrooding (p.850). However, as what

    myself and many friends in Hong Kong have found:

    When we use fine sand as the substrate, this species

    tend to be mouthbrooding; and for the same pair that

    has the mouthbrooding behaviour in fine sand

    substrate's tank, when i use ADA aquasoil, they

    breed without mouthbrooding... So, for the same pair

    of this species, different substrates already

    indicate differences in their behaviour!!

    2. The A. sp. "Fork-band": Essentially, we used to

    call it A. mendezi "Santa Isabel" or "the orange

    morph"... the proposed difference between it and

    mendezi is nothing more than individual

    differences... moreover, the photos also show many

    specimen WITHOUT the fork-band (p. 873)!! The

    vertical black strip on the cheek is something

    "sometimes visible, sometimes less visible" in

    mendezi... so, it is NOT a strong difference, in our

    opinion.

    3. For A. sp. "Jurua": It's mentioned that the male

    fish has the upper tip of the caudal fin being

    orange/red (p.908)... essentially, many years ago

    when we first got the wild-caught of this species,

    the chinese name for it is "King with a double red-

    tipped tail", i.e., the key feature for this name

    is: BOTH the upper and lower tips of the caudal fin

    are orange/red... it is probably a kind of genetic

    defect which results in specimen NOW only having the

    upper tip being orange. However, it is NOT the real

    feature of this fish (Compared, e.g., on p.191,

    Datz' South American Dwarf Cichlids which shows the

    upper and lower red tips of this species).

    4. A. eremnopyge: P.474, it is mentioned that

    "Apistogramma eremnopyge are best kept in smaller

    groups of four to five males and up to three times

    as many females in as roomy as aquarium as possible.

    Maintenance in pairs is only possible if at

    least two pairs are housed in tanks set next to each

    other ..." This claim is very very misleading...

    This species is very very usual in Hong Kong and

    hundreds of hobbyists have kept and bred it,

    including myself. I never feel anything special with

    this species and i always keep a single pair in a

    tank with 15-20 liters of water. They spawn readily

    and we have been very successful with keeping and

    breeding this species... Again, this species is just

    similar to A. bita., it's neither too aggressive nor

    coward...

    5. For A. sp. "Miua": P.950, it is mentioned that

    there is red mask on male's cheek BUT it is missing

    on the females. However, we have kept female miua

    with a red cheek which has also spawned...


    I actually find many many points that i do not feel

    comfortable with when i read the book. I especially

    have concerns regarding many very definite

    statements which are actually NOT definite or even

    wrong (because we have real counter-examples in our

    aquariums!!) ...

    Moreover, some relatively new species/specimen are not discussed/

    included, e.g., A. sp. "Oregon" (A182) (it's

    DIFFERENT from the A. sp. "Twin" (A181) in Uwe's

    book) and A. sp. "Kurzlappen-Breitbinden" (A166)...
  5. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    yes, i got it from Steven Simpson's Online Bookstore.
    Steven is so kind to help me get the books from a direct shipment
    from the printer in Singapore (to Hong Kong)!! So, i am able to get the book earlier than many others :)

    I haven't read ALL while i remember there's a discussion on A. sp. "Putzer"...
    Essentially, some species that are NOT described in Vol 1 are described in this new volume. Some supplementary notes to some selected species in Vol. 1 are also included (a personal disappointment: I do not find any updates on A. eliza, A. diplo, A. bita, A. mendezi, ... which are some interesting species to me)

    Some research results of Uwe are included in some places.

    There are some renames of several species, including, e.g.,
    A. sp. "Sunrise" -> A. huascar
    A. sp. "Lyre-tail" -> A. pantalone
    A. sp. "Harlequin" -> A. rositae
    Nannacara adoketa -> Ivanacara adoketa
    Nannacara bimaculata -> Ivanacara bimaculata

    One critique is: The photos are less attractive compared to volume 1's. Moreover, many not-yet-scientifically-defined species are described by
    names different from the most conventional names in the hobby,
    e.g., A. sp. "Breitbinden" is called A. sp. "Tail-spot",
    A. sp. "Maulbruter" is called A. sp. "Breast-band"... This will create some
    confusions to some readers...







  6. retro_gk

    retro_gk New Member

    Messages:
    230
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    We'll probably have to wait till the different "species" are formally described to sort that bit of confusion out.

    Interesting observation about the malbruter, though. Looks like the color of the substrate plays a role in behavior, as both substrates used have a similar texture.


    The housing requirements seem to be about par for the course. Everyone has different experiences and everyone has their own method.
  7. Joost S

    Joost S New Member

    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Leek, The Netherlands
    Can't wait to get hold of it!
    Can you give us the ISBN?
  8. a.d.wood

    a.d.wood Member

    Messages:
    264
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Are these renames a result of this book presenting a scientific description of these fish as a new species??? (or just additional common names to confuse us all).

    Also note the renaming of the adoketa/bimaculata genus to 'Ivanacara', again is this book acting as the published reference for a re-evaluation of the original genus description or is it just a proposal by Romer????

    Andrew

    Andrew
  9. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    hmm, i assume that Uwe has formally described and defined the species in the book (probably suported by some refereed journal publications, too?!).


    Absolutely right. It's also why i feel uncomfortable because many "necessary requirements" as cited in the book are actually unnecessary in many cases....
  10. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    sure, here you're :)
    ISBN 978-3-88244-041-6
  11. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    The names seem to be the formal scientific names and there are serious descriptions and definitions of the features of each species. This part of the book is definitely professional (and probably these are the extracts of the
    research papers of Uwe).

    I think Uwe has the authority to rename a species though i do not know the exact procedure for having the new name being valid. Again, it seems to me that all the renames are very formal...
  12. a.d.wood

    a.d.wood Member

    Messages:
    264
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Hi Blue,

    Maybe it's the scientist training in me, but I prefer to see descriptions in 'peer reviewed journals' and feel this lends a bit more credibility to the description (certainly when proposing a new genus).

    On saying that though, this won't be the first time new desriptions have come in through the 'back door'.

    Andrew
  13. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Of course the formal path should be as what you mentioned.
    It is actually a bad thing if many people just
    independently propose species names in their writings without being
    backed up by a formal peer-refereed journal publication.



  14. RiC

    RiC New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    My contact here tells me that it won't reach the US before March, is that true? :rolleyes:
  15. element

    element New Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    baltimore
    i just ordered it from Steven Simpson's Online Bookstore. and got a message that it will be shipped in 2 to 3 weeks from now.
    -Jason
  16. RiC

    RiC New Member

    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Yes I thought about Steven Simpson's bookstore too, but considering the (awful) state of the dollar right now, I was hoping it would be cheaper when the book is actually sold in the US... :rolleyes:
  17. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,352
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    I agree with you, Andrew. Uwe has p*s*ed off Kullander royally by describing all of his recent species in the hobby magazines "Buntbarsche Bulletin" & "Das Aquarium", plus his first volume of "Cichlid Atlas" - none of them juried by ichthologists. Be that as it may, the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature places on restriction on it. Strangely many of his papers (with Beisenherz) on apisto biotopes & behavior are published in scientific journals. I've talked to Uwe about it. He claims he published his descriptions in hobby magazines & books because they put out faster & he gets paid for them. In addition most scientific publications charge the author for color plates; no so with commercial hobby magazines.
  18. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    yes, the review time in refereed journals can be painfully long (i think
    ichthologists' journals are already quite fast compared to the business
    journals that i am publishing in!!) However, do publications in hobby
    magazines/books have the same standing/authority as the refereed
    journals?! Probably not i think though i am not in this area. And,
    for the publication cost with colourful figures, we usually
    would use research grants to cover it and it should not be a big deal...
  19. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,352
    Location:
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    There are no hard and fast rules. The ICZN places no particular requirements on where a scientific description is published as long as it can be readily found in a scientific literature search & is published as a hard copy in sufficient numbers to assure reasonable access. That being said, there has been a movement afloat among ichthyologists for several years to encourage non-juried publications to stop publishing scientific descriptions. Many have agreed, but some others see $$.
  20. blueblue

    blueblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,876
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    i see... there are always debates on this kind of topic and conflicts of interests always exist which imply that a consensus is difficult to reach...

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