Dicrossus female not a caring mom

[TCMontium]

My female Dicrossus filamentosus had 2 or 3 clutches before with a male and all of them disappeared in maybe 5-8 hours. I had some Sturisoma and the male left in the aquarium back then and the TDS measure was 60 ppm, so, I thought one of these was the reason that the eggs were eaten. Or maybe the male was sterile.

Today though, she had a new clutch with a new male in an aquarium that only has 1 small otocinclus and some marbled hatched on the surface. TDS is 17 ppm. I seperated the male after I saw her defending the eggs from the male. And even under these conditions she doesn't take care of her eggs! She just swims around at the other end of the aquarium, I never even saw her looking at the eggs…

Do you think she is just a lost case at motherhood? Should I try to artificially hatch the eggs? I am afraid that if I do take the eggs away I will scare her and she won't breed again in a long while. If I also lose the eggs to molding I will be in a big loss (which is highly probable, I only tried artificial hatching on bristlenose eggs before…).

What is my best bet? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[TCMontium]

I did put the tip of an air hose next to the eggs. The leaf they are on is vibrating with the current that the bubbles are creating. I hope this isn't too much movement for the healthy developement of the eggs.
The lights are closed, the only is the dim light of the window and from other aquariums in the room.
I am going to take the parents away from the aquarium before the eggs hatch (hopefully they will hatch) since even the mother probably is going to eat the fry.
The temperature is 24-25 celcius degrees.

Should I do anything else? Change anything? When the eggs become 3 days old, I probably am going to cut the leaf in half and remove half of the eggs into an empty aquarium with water from the main aquarium. It will be easier to observe and feed the fry in an empty, non-decorated aquarium. Do you agree?

 

[Mike Wise]

I've always found female D. filamentosus to be very 'casual' (incompetent?) when caring for a spawn. Each fish seems a bit different. I have no idea what triggers their protective instinct. You might need to artificially hatch/raise eggs/fry of this female. Me? I'm lazy so I would just keep giving her more chances. Hopefully she will finally get it right.

 

[TCMontium]

I've always found female D. filamentosus to be very 'casual' (incompetent?) when caring for a spawn. Each fish seems a bit different. I have no idea what triggers their protective instinct. You might need to artificially hatch/raise eggs/fry of this female. Me? I'm lazy so I would just keep giving her more chances. Hopefully she will finally get it right.

I would give her more chances (even though this is like the 4th spawn) but I have to give away all my fish in August/September. I only have near a month of time to have fry, so that I can grow them enough during the summer.
Any advice on artificial hatching? Would it be dangerous for the eggs if I turned the heat up a little, to 26-27 celcius?

I feel like such an amateur asking questions like these. Sorry for bothering with simple questions.

 

[gerald]

Cichlids often get better at caring for their eggs and fry as they mature. It's common for the first several spawns to be eaten. Maybe the ability to make eggs happens before the brood-care hormone regulation has fully matured - i'm just guessing. Leave a light on in the room so the tank doesn't get completely dark at night. Hopefully she'll learn what to do eventually.

Edit: I just saw the last 2 recent posts. A few degrees warmer should be fine. Rio Negro and Orinoco are quite warm. Also I would put a layer of soaked dead tree leaves (oak, maple, elm, ash, willow, etc) and some plants that dont need to be rooted (Java moss, Najas, Elodea) in the fry-growing tank.

 

[TCMontium]

Well, I found out something I would never even think of. Life is full of surprises and murphy's law exists.
When I shot some macros of the eggs today, which were being artificially cared for nearly 3 days, I saw dozens of tiny balls on the eggs. Guess what! I had pond snails in that aquarium… Even though I was cautious and did remove the snails that I could see, the real unstoppable danger was the unseen tiny ones.

I moved the pair to a "hopefully snail free" aquarium, but I can't be sure since I move plants and decorations between aquariums all the time.
Maybe the mother was a caring mom after all. It was just the case that she could do nothing to save her eggs from tiny demon army.

 

[gerald]

Can you post a picture of the "snail eggs" ? Pond snail eggs are laid in a gelatinous blob. If they were not, then they're probably something else.

 

[TCMontium]

Can you post a picture of the "snail eggs" ? Pond snail eggs are laid in a gelatinous blob. If they were not, then they're probably something else.

There are no snail eggs. There are snail hatchlings on the dicrossus eggs, eating them. I think they must be snail hatchlings anyway.

 

[gerald]

Hmmm ... i've never seen snails quite like those. Do you have any way of zooming in closer, or maybe a friend or nearby school that has a dissecting microscope with a camera? Looks like they might be one of the tiny flat (plani-spiral) snail genera: (Biomphalaria, Valvata, Gyraulus, Menetus, Planorbula, or others) if they are in fact snails. To me they really look like strawberry seeds! I wasn't aware of these plani-spiral snails attacking healthy fish eggs; most of them normally eat decaying matter (including dead eggs) and algae. But apparently some do, if your eggs are being attacked within a few hours after being laid.

FYI there are cheap microscope-cameras that plug into a computer with USB. "Veho" is one brand; there are several others. Mine was about $40.

 

[TCMontium]

Hmmm ... i've never seen snails quite like those. Do you have any way of zooming in closer, or maybe a friend or nearby school that has a dissecting microscope with a camera? Looks like they might be one of the tiny flat (plani-spiral) snail genera: (Biomphalaria, Valvata, Gyraulus, Menetus, Planorbula, or others) if they are in fact snails. To me they really look like strawberry seeds! I wasn't aware of these plani-spiral snails attacking healthy fish eggs; most of them normally eat decaying matter (including dead eggs) and algae. But apparently some do, if your eggs are being attacked within a few hours after being laid.

FYI there are cheap microscope-cameras that plug into a computer with USB. "Veho" is one brand; there are several others. Mine was about $40.

Just before and after the eggs were laid 2 different pond snail egg-blobs disappeared, meaning that snails hatched around the time dicrossus laid her eggs. The most possible answer is that these are pond snail (Physa sp.) hatchlings. But I will try to take closer photos if I ever see one again. I have a 100 mm 2.8f macro lens, which will probably be good enough if I have enough light/flash. Microscope or microscoping cameras are not available to me, I can't buy one, not for now.

Also the pair laid around 80 eggs in the new snail-free tank today! This is the biggest spawn yet and she is taking care of the eggs pretty good this time. The male was so scared he hid under a catappa leaf, I removed him. Her behavior and the size of the clutch makes me think that there will be fry this time! Lets wait and see.

 

[TCMontium]

It has been nearly 20 hours since the successful spawn was laid. But some eggs turn white out of nowhere. They look all healthy and after a few minutes I look again at the eggs and 1 or 2 of them are half white with maybe some deformed shape. Are the shells or something inside the shells exploding maybe? Temperature is 26 degrees celcius and TDS-meter reads 26 ppm (equals to 40 to 55 microSiemens with my cheap untrustworthy TDS-meter). The female is removing the eggs that turn white, but if it keeps happening, at this rate I may even lose all the eggs. Not sure...

 

[TCMontium]

Out of more than a hundred eggs, after 24 hours, only 50-ish are left. Is there a problem with the water or is this a normal loss rate for Dicrossus spp.? The eggs keep turning white one by one and the female keeps removing the white eggs. Maybe she hits the eggs with her fins too much and breaches the thin shell? Maybe conductivity is too high? Maybe nitrate or ammunium levels are high? Any ideas?

 

[Mike Wise]

I would expect some to not be fertilized, but half is rather high. Also, I would think that after a day you should see the larvae developing in the eggs. I don't see any development in your photo. I'd guess that either the water parameters are wrong for fertilization or the male is 'shooting blanks'. If your pH is above 6, I'd definitely lower it, preferably to ~pH 5.5 or even lower. Also make sure there are no metals contaminating the water supply. Zinc is know to retard development of eggs in trout, for example.

 

[TCMontium]

I would expect some to not be fertilized, but half is rather high. Also, I would think that after a day you should see the larvae developing in the eggs. I don't see any development in your photo. I'd guess that either the water parameters are wrong for fertilization or the male is 'shooting blanks'. If your pH is above 6, I'd definitely lower it, preferably to ~pH 5.5 or even lower. Also make sure there are no metals contaminating the water supply. Zinc is know to retard development of eggs in trout, for example.

I guess the eggs really are just not fertilized. I just shot some more photos and they look the same as yesterday. I only use RO water, there shouldn't be any metals in the water. Apistos were breeding with no problems in this water, just the Dicrossus are being hard. My pH is somewhere around 5.5 straight out of the RO and I also use plenty of dry leafs, the water is tinted dark mostly. Pretty sure pH is 4.5-5.0 in the tank, but conductivity could be lower. I can get it down to 10 ppm, which would be maybe 12-20 microSiemens.

 

[Mike Wise]

Honestly, your water is soft enough. I've had viable spawns at ~40 µS/cm.