balloon rams

[yutaka]

Sure it does: Indeed, you unequivocally imply as much by stating that "maintaining a pure strain has always been my priority..." That, in fact, has been my position and my message all along, and if I have been a little heavy-handed with my earlier replies it is only because you decided to keep your sense of responsibility a secret for so long...

Rather senseless to be arguing over things we agree upon, isn't it?

LOL ! Common sense is not so common after all, at least for some.
If one really love and care for his fishes,why would he/she staint their purity?If your cerebrum spins fast enough,you will be the last to deny that responsible hobbyists' husbandry practices is neither a "secret" nor a subject to others' evaluation/directive. I am relieve you have cooled down a great deal.But still, you sounded a little autocratic and seemed to have tendencies to stuff words down others' throat..

Jeff, what's the difference between a farm bred dwarf and wild form dwarf ? Of course you may go ahead and verify their "citizenship".

[/quote]from balloon rams to Parrot cichlids to the "mighty" FLOWER HORN, they are all pretty "unique" and beautiful in their own way... but if one does choose to keep these fish, there is something that they have to understand about how these fish actually came about. The flower horn seems to be a crossbreed made up of many cichlisoma, such as the red devil and others and the parrots are what seem to be a crossbreed of the convict and others. There is certainly nothing wrong with keeping these fish in the hobby, ONLY that I believe that this promotes the hobby into it's "darkest" of hours, not because these fish may "stain" the purity if bred with others, in such as the case with the parrots (that I have come to understand as being able to breed and have fertile young), but the fact that there are what I would call, "sick individuals" who breed these fish and mutilate them in a number of ways just to make them more pleasing to others and to "jack up the prices." In the Japanese market, there are opportunists who have taken this specific fish and have bred it into a number of shapes, colors, and shades because they are said to be a "good luck" fish and sell them at insane prices. Along with that, they keep their " mixes/breeds" secret because they want to keep this market lucrative! It truely is a sad developement. Ethical or not, it's only my opinion. The fish are the ones harmed in the end.
sorry this is aside from what you were talking about but it's similar and just something that came to mind while reading your posts.

Don't be such a paranoia.Why would and how many backyard breeders is going to do that?

Fish keeping is more than a hobby.It's part of a commercial sector ie aquaculture.If the products of these sick individuals are supported by the hobbyists, who is sicker?Of course ,fins snipping is unthinkable and absolutely despicable not to mention color dyeing and gm fishes.When I started this thread, I thought these dwarf was man made ie a product of GM.

I have not kept these fishes apart from dwarf ram.When I first caught a glimpse of the parrot,my impression was "weird fish".Then again there are many species which look like deform specimen.If one has knowledge or at least seen pic of many fishes and other lifeforms, he/she would probably not think them weird or dismiss and degrade them as low classed specimens and instead over a period of time, with an open mind,would learn to appreciate nature's beauty,vastness and diversity.

Speaking of diversity, the possibility of a new color morph, a 24k dwarf ram does not seem remote.

Back to fish keeping.

 

[aquabillpers]

There is an interesting article from Tank Talk via aquarticles.com by Andrew Boyd of Australia on the subject of hybridizing. In it he points out that an endangered species (he mentions an Australian rainbowfish) can be bred to a similar-appearing close relative and produce offspring that can be distributed as the endangered fish. This is not only fraudulent but could impact the remaining wild population if down the road the hybrids were re-introduced into the wild.

He gives another example of endangered African cichlid species whom hybridization could also endanger.

He comments that the major problem with intentional hybridization is that it detracts otherwise well-meaning people from devoting their energies to preserving pure strains of endangered species with the intention that they can be someday used to reestablish wild populations.

The article can be read at http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Boyd_Hybrids.html

Regards,

Bill

 

[yutaka]

This is not only fraudulent but could impact the remaining wild population if down the road the hybrids were re-introduced into the wild.

This is a good point.Being endangered, it appears that the "pirated product" would profit many dishonest souls.The fear and possibility that
wild forms may be tainted may be over exaggerated.Why would one do so?What motivates one to "contaminate" their own natural resources/national treasures?Probably some nitwits or "nothing better to do" souls would and what can we really do about it?

Don't hydrids occur in the wild,too?Scientist say they are possible but remote and possibly they won't survive in the wild?

He comments that the major problem with intentional hybridization is that it detracts otherwise well-meaning people from devoting their energies to preserving pure strains of endangered species with the intention that they can be someday used to reestablish wild populations.

Another point to ponder.Here's what I think.
If mankind genuinely desires to protect nature and its limited resources,trading of endangerred or protected species should be disallowed/banned altogether while the preservation and propagation activities be best left to the experts.

I personally think that arguments for and against hydrids,man made,selectively bred specimens are a great distraction.They robbed hobbyists of their precious time and energy from doing what they do best,or at least what they should be doing, ie fish keeping.Some even go to the extent of starting a poll and endless debates on "for and against" hydrid.LOL!Are these activities enriching and satisfying?

By all means hobbyists may pick their favorite fish and should learn to respect their fellow hobbyists choices and not forgetting that this is a just hobby for one and others to indulge for relaxation ,enjoyment etc.


Back to breeding.

 

[cootwarm]

I personally experienced something that relates to this topic.

The first apistogrammas I ever got, I bought from a LFS as agassizi but they were in reality a hybrid (A. sp. "Steel Blue") developed in asia. I felt I was sold fakes! I wasn't expecting, or looking to purchase "pure" wild caught agassizi but I at least expected to get a real species!

This experience influenced my decision to aquire only wild caught specimens whenever possible. The LFS in my area know nothing about apistos and it seems their suppliers know nothing about them either. So now I only purchase from reputable mail order dealers. With the LFS in my area you never know what you're getting.

The "Steel Blue" is just a cross between 2 species and doesn't have any visible physical deformity. But I would have been even more upset if I had purchased a pair of nice looking Rams that ended up having deformed fry, because these normal looking Rams had Ballon Ram parents or grandparents!

Having said that, I also think it's cruel to intentionally breed physical deformities in any creature. It's very likely that in addition to visible, external deformities there could also be internal deformities that may directly effect vital organs or cause a strain on them.

I refer to a post by yutaka in this thread from last July:

You are right Neil, the are hard to raise.

Could this be because they are weak from internal deformities?

IMO, the real beauty of an aquarium is the habitat. I prefer that the fish bring interest to the habitat, not dominate the scene. I feel like I've accomplished something when I set up a tank for wild apistos and they are comfortable enough to settle right in like they never left home.

Michael

 

[aspen]

>>'...I would have been even more upset if I had purchased a pair of nice looking Rams that ended up having deformed fry, because these normal looking Rams had Ballon Ram parents or grandparents.'

i would agree wholeheartedly with this. i wouldn't breed this fish because i would feel it necessary to explain what i THOUGHT they might be every time i sold them. if you want to keep them, then enjoy them.

rick

 

[yutaka]

I personally experienced something that relates to this topic.

The first apistogrammas I ever got, I bought from a LFS as agassizi but they were in reality a hybrid (A. sp. "Steel Blue") developed in asia. I felt I was sold fakes! I wasn't expecting, or looking to purchase "pure" wild caught agassizi but I at least expected to get a real species!

I am sad to hear of your plight.However,what you have experience is entirely a different issue and irrelevant to this topic.

You must have bought some very young non colored up juvenile.
Your LFS could have mix the hybrid with the "real"agassizi you desired or intend to mislead customer or outright ignorant of what he thought he was actually selling.

In your market, juveniles barely over half inch are sold widely for a great variety of species.LFS are not non-profit making enterprises and therefore being familiar with the nature of the market,a well informed hobbyist would not have take such gamble by buying smaller juveniles which are obviously cheaper.Do you still think the hybrid is to be blamed for one's blunder?

The "Steel Blue" is just a cross between 2 species and doesn't have any visible physical deformity. But I would have been even more upset if I had purchased a pair of nice looking Rams that ended up having deformed fry, because these normal looking Rams had Ballon Ram parents or grandparents!

Having said that, I also think it's cruel to intentionally breed physical deformities in any creature. It's very likely that in addition to visible, external deformities there could also be internal deformities that may directly effect vital organs or cause a strain on them.

What constitute external and internal deformities and how many hybrids have physical deformities?If you conclude hybrids have physical deformities,does it make sense to release them into the market?Suppose this variant has internal deformities, could the adults last more than a year and their offspring reaching adulthood in great health, brilliantly colored and prolific?

Being a well-informed hobbyist,would you not be able to see the stark difference between common specimens,their variants,wild forms and mutants?

"normal looking Rams had Ballon Ram parents or grandparents! ",you really think hobbyists would buy from a breeder who prefers to mix his common ram with it's balloon trait?You really think the breeder would cross them to make more money????Do you see any logic in your statement?

Quote:
You are right Neil, the are hard to raise.


Could this be because they are weak from internal deformities?

It was my 1st experience with both the common ram and this variant
and I could raise very few fries,then.I changed my set up and feeding regime and thereafter till present,I raise more fries to adulthood than I could imagine compare to the common ram.Surprisingly, this variant outlived the common ram.Weak from internal deformities?Haven't other possibilities of causes of death crossed your mind,eg poor water parameter,lack of food etc?Have you ever reared and raised ram before?
Do you know that the fries have microscopic mouth ?

>>'...I would have been even more upset if I had purchased a pair of nice looking Rams that ended up having deformed fry, because these normal looking Rams had Ballon Ram parents or grandparents.'

i would agree wholeheartedly with this. i wouldn't breed this fish because i would feel it necessary to explain what i THOUGHT they might be every time i sold them. if you want to keep them, then enjoy them.

How would a tiny variant lead one into making and agreeing on others' some outright irrational supposition ,statements and conclusion?

Back to fish raising.


:lol:

 

[yutaka]

Well, of course many hobbyists have pick their favorite fish/fishes
to kick start the hobby but I am sympathetic to a very few who has knowingly/unknowingly pick up the habit of crucifying fishes not to their liking by forwarding illogical suppositions and naive arguments calculated
to selectively "disgrace" a particular fish without even having any actual experience with the same.Sure I have my dislikes too,but I don't make it a point to bad mouth others' precious.

Despite all these arguments, ever wonder why hydrids and variants alike are popular among many hobbyists and even well known to non hobbyist?Perhaps these argument have big holes or just mere vacuum which doesn't whole a single drop of water.And perhaps, these unique fishes have you guys to thank for making them even more popular.

 

[cootwarm]

what you have experience is entirely a different issue and irrelevant to this topic

My experience most certainly is relevent to this topic! This is the exact point that every other person who posted on this thread is trying to get across to you. Why you don't see that yourself is beyond me! Instead when anyone made a post disagreeing with you, you got upset and rude.

Do you still think the hybrid is to be blamed for one's blunder?

How could you think I blame the fish!? I blame the breeder and/or deceitful distributor that sold the fish as something they weren't.

What constitute external and internal deformities and how many hybrids have physical deformities?

With the ballon ram, the external AND internal deformities are obvious. Their big, round bellies certainly aren't filled with air! And if you can't see how a big, bloated belly can cause a strain on the internal organs, then why are obese people more at risk for heart attacks and other medical problems than non-obese people?

And perhaps, these unique fishes have you guys to thank for making them even more popular.

I don't see where they've become more popular because of this thread. You are the only one that has been defending the ballon ram as a 'normal' fish. Why are you preaching so emotionally that they are? If you're looking for converts, I see none here.

Sure I have my dislikes too,but I don't make it a point to bad mouth others' precious.

Why do you think disagreeing with you contitutes "bad mouthing"? You think that your comments aren't "bad mouthing"?

Michael

 

[yutaka]

I could not find any pictures or info on the net on these cuties as they seemed to be different in terms of size and shape although they are just as brilliantly coloured.I wonder if they are of different strain, mutants or genetically engineered?

This is what the thread is all about, the variant's origin.

Quote:
what you have experience is entirely a different issue and irrelevant to this topic

My experience most certainly is relevent to this topic! This is the exact point that every other person who posted on this thread is trying to get across to you. Why you don't see that yourself is beyond me! Instead when anyone made a post disagreeing with you, you got upset and rude.

Wow! I could feel the heat and I think your emotional state have clutterred your mind have prevented you from appreciating the purpose of this thread.Everyone here is trying to get their point across and they have all gone astrayed ,including myself.If you've got a valid,reasonable, logical points/arguments and adequately supported/substantiated facts, no one would be in their right mind to disagree with you.

Quote:
What constitute external and internal deformities and how many hybrids have physical deformities?

With the ballon ram, the external AND internal deformities are obvious. Their big, round bellies certainly aren't filled with air! And if you can't see how a big, bloated belly can cause a strain on the internal organs, then why are obese people more at risk for heart attacks and other medical problems than non-obese people?

Have you ever conducted an autopsy of a dead common ram and it's variant to see what's really inside?
If you really observe and look carefully, their rounded bellies are a far cry from balloon mollies.Oh my goodness!!You are comparing rams' stocky body with obese people and do obese people have internal deformities too? What do you say with the fatty puffer?

Quote:
And perhaps, these unique fishes have you guys to thank for making them even more popular.

I don't see where they've become more popular because of this thread. You are the only one that has been defending the ballon ram as a 'normal' fish. Why are you preaching so emotionally that they are? If you're looking for converts, I see none here.

Could you tell me when did I ever say that they are normal?
I only imply that they could be the result of a normal occurence ie dwarfism.Like I have mentioned umpteen times, you and I and every one else don't decide and have no control over what others like or dislike.

Quote:
Sure I have my dislikes too,but I don't make it a point to bad mouth others' precious.

Why do you think disagreeing with you contitutes "bad mouthing"? You think that your comments aren't "bad mouthing"?

I think it's more like I am trying very hard to disagree with non valid arguments/misleading info.I don't blame you for blowing your top,since you are looking for deformities profusely rather than truly seeing what the fish really is ie a healthy and brilliantly colored specimen.When did I ever bad mouth others fishes?

Looking at the number of views, this thread seemed to have generated a lot of interest and curiousity.And when one have try them out,the fish
speaks for itself, be it beautiful or ugly,normal or deformed.Yours and others, including my views are not as authoritative as the actual experiences of the hobbyists with this fish.I don't conclude the food taste awful just by looking and not trying it.You are doing yourself justice.

Many years back,when first lay my eyes on a flowerhorn,the only word that cross my mind is "deformed head" and I also saw some African cichlid with "swollen lips".How very wrong I was when I realise there are many non hybrid species with hump on their head including marine fishs.Since then, I learn to appreciate their ornamental value rather than judging them by their origin.

A beautiful fish is still a beautiful fish to one, be it wild forms,farm bred,variants and hybrids.
A benevolent man is still a benevolent man whether he is from humble beginning or born with a silver spoon.

 

[MC1979]

Yutaka,

A question if I may, Are you actively persuing the source of these fish?

It would be nice to know who and where they came from, wouldn't you agree?

 

[fishgeek]

yutaka why have you started this type of thread on multiple forums?

if you are truly just trying to understand why the fish are different then perhaps you need to follow their lineage backwards to the orginal parents

if you are trying to breed a new colour variant then just continue to pick for the strongest individuals that show that trait , line breeding will increase the chance of lethal gene traits becoming fixed
and it is what man has done to many species before - just to make them look a certain way

correct me if i am wrong, perhaps you are trying to promote a new fish?
it may be easier to just openly promote it if that is your aim

or perhaps you just enjoy the friendly banter caused by it

andrew

 

[Apistt_ed]

..

fishgeek Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:31 am Post subject:


yutaka why have you started this type of thread on multiple forums?

That is strange.. I have seen this on other forums too? I thought it was maybe a different person but the names are the same. But the difference is the feedback between the forums; they are drastically polar! A Classic "passionate" pro & con argument... I LOVE IT!

 

[yutaka]

Yutaka,

A question if I may, Are you actively persuing the source of these fish?

It would be nice to know who and where they came from, wouldn't you agree?

Well, I think better not since it has already broken a few hobbyists' heart.

Yutaka why have you started this type of thread on multiple forums?

if you are truly just trying to understand why the fish are different then perhaps you need to follow their lineage backwards to the orginal parents

I couldn't wait to find out what they are and I am not getting logical and reasonable replies. At present, I am not doin' and certainly not capable of scientific research and therefore would be less interested in finding out why there are different.I was wondering if they are gm stuff, hydrid etc as simple as that.

correct me if i am wrong, perhaps you are trying to promote a new fish? it may be easier to just openly promote it if that is your aim

or perhaps you just enjoy the friendly banter caused by it

I regret to say that you are both right and wrong.
Wrong, because I am not a commercial breeder and the fish has been around too long to be a new fish.I am sure some suspicious characters would think that I am a commercial breeder.I am most flatterred and perhaps I should be one and live up to your expectations.

Would commercial breeders promote their fishes thru forums which may represent a small section of the fish hobbyists community?I may be wrong.How do they promote flowerhorn,arowana,goldfish etc,thru forums??Do they need to promote beautiful fishes which speak for themselves?

Right, because the sometimes biased, prejudicial and emotional responses has ignited and generated a great deal of interest in this little fish.Lucky you little fish,gettin's all that free publicity when you were thought to be a sickly fish. Hey, little fish, "silence is golden, but my heart still aches,silence is golden ,golden....."

It makes no difference to me,if I am the only one who keep this fish.Perhaps I might not have felt that way,until when the little fish began to show other different coloration.This somewhat reinforces my belief that it is possible and we could have many color varieties of rams, one day. And perhaps when the day comes, I fear some guys would cross the common rams with this little guy just to get their new outfits,rather than to be belittled/eclipsed by this little guys' coloration.

I can't say I don't enjoy running my fingers furiously(Lol) over the keyboard but, by any standard, some responses are not merely friendly banter as you'd like to put it,they are not malicious but it does hurt deeply.I almost had sleepless nights.But then again you might have a good laugh cos a cordial chat about a fish's origin seemed capable of exposing one's character.

But the difference is the feedback between the forums; they are drastically polar! A Classic "passionate" pro & con argument... I LOVE IT!

Yeah, you might think it clannish-like."Who's side are you on" that kinda thing,lol." Hey it's a deformed fish, it's cruel to breed it, fry them or feed them to the flowerhorn, did I say flowerhorn?yikes! " lol.

Everybody's into the same thing ie fish keeping but amazingly they can't accept others' preferences/choices, hence this seemingly never ending thread.I am gettin' worried that this thread isn't anymore about the fish,lol.

At the end of the day, the lucky guys are still the fish,the commercial breeders and your favorite LFSes.

 

[MC1979]

Yutaka,

A question if I may, Are you actively persuing the source of these fish?

It would be nice to know who and where they came from, wouldn't you agree?

Well, I think better not since it has already broken a few hobbyists' heart.

I for one would like to know who developed this fish and bred it for this particular trait. The origins of any "new" (I use this term loosely) are important to the hobby, If it was an anomally found in a large population in the wild, I think it would be interesting to find out.


Have you ever kept Microgeophagus ramirezi before? The standard type, not the line bred German Blue variety, or the gold variety.

You see many people would look down on a somewhat "plain" fish, yet natural beauty is something people gloss over. If you like your baloon rams, then this is fine, as everyone is entitled to like something another may not. This is called freedom of choice and expression. However, just because someone feels more strongly about a matter more then yourself, doesn't make them any better or worse then you.

Just accept their differing opinion and move on. You won't always get the answer you are after, and repeatedly going over the same points, really doesn't achieve anything.

Just my 2 cents. Enjoy your baloons.

 

[yutaka]

You see many people would look down on a somewhat "plain" fish, yet natural beauty is something people gloss over. If you like your baloon rams, then this is fine, as everyone is entitled to like something another may not. This is called freedom of choice and expression. However, just because someone feels more strongly about a matter more then yourself, doesn't make them any better or worse then you.

Just accept their differing opinion and move on. You won't always get the answer you are after, and repeatedly going over the same points, really doesn't achieve anything.

This certainly sounds like a mother crab tellin's its babies to walk straight.
Mine only worth 1cent.

 

[RAM]

I guess different people react differently in accepting hybrids.

Some gets extremely put off after seeing a hybrid or deform fish while others
adopt a curious attitude.

For me, I can accept such hybrids, as long as breeders and hobbyist don't release them back to the wild.

IMO, in the case of the balloon ram. It is a state of art created by
selective breeding of such gene. Refining them to a near perfect round shape
will resembles a mini discus fish ,which is very challenging and interesting, isn't it?. This might also benefit new hobbyist who has only a small vertical tank to start with.

Anyway Yutaka, I like your Rams. Coloration is superb.

BTW,I have produced almost near perfection round body golden ram which I named 24K Gold Coin.

I believe the strain has not stablised yet.

Anyway, here are the pics.....please no heat arguments after seeing photos.

 

[mummymonkey]

If I was to say what I really thought of those fish you linked to (the link doesn't work btw, I went to the arro forum and looked), I'd get banned from this forum.
Suffice to say when I saw them my overridding emotion was one of deep sadness. I'm sure you'll make lots of money selling this fish.

 

[RAM]

If I was to say what I really thought of those fish you linked to (the link doesn't work btw, I went to the arro forum and looked), I'd get banned from this forum.
Suffice to say when I saw them my overridding emotion was one of deep sadness. I'm sure you'll make lots of money selling this fish.

First,I am not a commercial seller. Furthermore with the negative perception of majority for such gene, how to sell well? Me, Pure Hobbyist.
But will share the fruit if any who fancies balloon rams.

 

[Sir_BlackhOle]

............

 

[Lisachromis]

That's just so... so... umm... EEEEEEEEEEEWWW! (My opinion obviously!)