Apistogramma agassizii

[Yuri]

I will insert this map so that people can see the Amazon River since we are talking about various localities... easier to understand...

 

[apistodave]

Tefe

The Lago Tefe' is the barrier that splits the Sp on that river

 

[Mike Wise]

A. cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu) (A 241) - Río Ampiyacu (Peru)
A. cf. agassizii (Marañon) (A 242) - Río Marañon (Peru)
A. cf. agassizii (Pastel) (A 239) - L. Ucayali (near Requina & Jenaro Herrera, Río Tamshiyacu; Río Tapiche?) (Peru)
A. cf. agassizii (Purus) (A 238) - Rio Purus (Brazil)

Each of these represent distinct forms that are more endemic than the more widely distributed holotype, BBCS, and Netz forms. All of these forms probably are offshoots of the type form. None of these are collected with any other form of A. agassizii. This is similar pattern of distribution seen with A. agassizii (type) and A. sp. Tefé. The Pastel form is a question. TomC & I collected what we thought might be Pastel together with more typical A. agassizii, but our (my) ID might be wrong.).

Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Trombetas) is a Netz form. The photo in the DATZ book is not the best at showing the net-like scale pattern on the body, however. There is a photograph by Koji Yamazaki in Matzuzaka (1996) that shows this feature. The Trombetas system is very close to the Alenquer and Obidos, where we get most of our commercally collected Netz form.

 

[Yuri]

Thanks Mike,

Can I ask people to send me pictures of color variations / different localities of wild A. agassizii (Type Form)? I would collect these photographs, learn and make a PDF leaflet (reference book).

As Mike and other say there are many color variations of A. agassizii (Type Form). I and probably many of you would like to see as many as possible photographs of the Type Forms from U. Río Amazonas (Peru) to L. Rio Solimões (Brazil), etc.

I have not seen (at least don't know) such source of info... Just wonder how do they look like, to compare to each other, to (may be) find out some regularity in color(s) / locality interrelation...

Your help would be very much appreciated. Please upload pictures here with a correct name of the collection place, as much as possible info, such as a collector name, collection date, etc.

Thanks.

 

[JasonC]

Just want to say that this is a fascinating conversation. I don't understand half of it, but its extremely interesting none the same.

Got a lot of reading up to do....

 

[Mike Wise]

Jason, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread. Whenever you have a question, just ask. What I write, is my opinion of course. I'm sure it will change with new information. It always does!

Yuri, just ignore color. Every population as at least 2 different color morphs. Many have more! I have photos of over a dozen different populations of the holotype form of A. agassizii from all over Peru, Colombia, and western Brazil. Most are so similar that it would be almost impossible to say where each fish originated without a collecting location. Five or six years ago I presented a slide show and talk on members of the agassizii-group at the dwarf cichlid study group meeting at the ACA annual convention.

 

[Yuri]

Mike, there are 2 things I would like to make clear (as much as possible of course) about A. agassizii (Type Form):

1. I would like to find out how many color variations of the wild Type Form are presented (known) at the moment.

2. How many actual (aka clearly recorded) collection places of the wild Type Form do we know?

Certainly photographs would help a lot. And if we know a collector name, exact location (co-ordinates even better), collection date, etc we can make (at least to start to do a A. agassizii database.

It will be very much appreciated if you can share your photos / info about that slide show you had six years ago since most of us could not be there and enjoy your conversation.

Apistogramma agassizii is the most complicated subcomplex (CA 2, U. Römer, p. 293, Phylogenetic organization... REGAN) from the Apistogramma genus... that's why I have started this thread. None of the mentioned at the beginning of this thread books give you clear info on this... nor discrete internet sources...

 

[Mike Wise]

Mike, there are 2 things I would like to make clear (as much as possible of course) about A. agassizii (Type Form):

1. I would like to find out how many color variations of the wild Type Form are presented (known) at the moment.

Color for the most part has no meaning. I have seen many hundreds of A. agassizii - alive and in photos. The subtle variations in color are all over the spectrum. Each collecting site will have several fish with different base colors in the body or fins. I cannot even guess how many different variations on color that I have seen over the past 30 years.

2. How many actual (aka clearly recorded) collection places of the wild Type Form do we know?

In truth, not that many. There are probably under 100 scientific collecting localities listed. Most of these are for preserved fish without color descriptions. There are actually even fewer collecting locations reported by hobbyist/collectors, but I would bet that there are many more A. aggassizii collected by them than scientists. I know that TomC and I collected A. agassizii at most of the collecting sites that we checked. Often we would not keep the fish. We would just take photos in a specimen cup (too many fish; too little space:frown. Presently we do not keep apistos cataloged as accurately as do killifish keepers.

Certainly photographs would help a lot. And if we know a collector name, exact location (co-ordinates even better), collection date, etc we can make (at least to start to do a A. agassizii database.

It would be fairly easy (but tedious) to research the collecting sites in the scientific literature. It is mostly published or logged in museum collections. It would be much more difficult to get information from private hobbyists. First, no one has a comprehensive list of private collectors who have collected A. agassizii in the wild. Second, not all collectors can accurately locate where they collected their fish! TomC used a GPS locator, so our collecting sites are fairly accurate. Earlier collectors could only guess - and even now most collectors are more interested in the fish than accurately determining where they were found! Then there are the professional collectors. These people collect in a general area and mix fish from several nearby collecting localities. By nearby I mean within a day's walk of their base camp. This could be tens of kilometers! Then the fish from this day are added to fish from other nearby locations, from the days before and the days after. Then these fish are mixed with fish at the export stations with those from other collectors fish. For your purposes, they can't be used.[/QUOTE]

It will be very much appreciated if you can share your photos / info about that slide show you had six years ago since most of us could not be there and enjoy your conversation.

I wish that I could put it on a web site, but I cannot. Many of the photos are not mine. I am fortunate to know apistophiles from all over the world who allow me to use their photos. I always ask permission and promise to use them only in talks that I give. I promise that I will not to make money on the photos or allow them to be spread around without permission.

Apistogramma agassizii is the most complicated subcomplex (CA 2, U. Römer, p. 293, Phylogenetic organization... REGAN) from the Apistogramma genus... that's why I have started this thread. None of the mentioned at the beginning of this thread books give you clear info on this... nor discrete internet sources...

That is true. No book or internet source can possibly provide all of the data that you want. It is just too vast and no one has all of the data! This is why most authors (and that includes me!) only provide general collecting localities (parts of river systems, nearby villages, etc.) when describing collecting sites.

 

[Yuri]

Many thanks Mike for such comprehensive answers.

On TomC website:

"Colour forms of Amazonian cichlid fish represent reproductively isolated species"

"Their work indicates that several geographical populations / colour forms of Apistogramma caetei should be considered as biological isolated species.

"If future studies confirm that this result is indicative of a general trend, the species richness of the "Apistogramma" may presently be seriously underestimated." (Ready, J.S. et al., 2006)"

Here is a link to the complete article:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2006.01088.x/pdf

Apistogramma caetei in this case is just for example. Just imagine if they do the same research for A. agassizii

I still believe that colour does matter in many cases. More reading and learning about Apistogramma I can see that there are so many things need to be learned / descovered / underestimated / etc etc Apistogramma is a genus to work on for many years...

I could only wish to Apistogramma enthusiasts to be accurate as Killifish guys when collecting fish.

Apistogramma area is small comparing to Killifish. There are a few countries only. Why not to use extra info for Apistogramma populations.

I would suggest to use the Maidenhead Locator System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System

and river source...

Easy to understand map is here http://f6fvy.free.fr/qthLocator/fullScreen.php

Just click anywhere on the map to see so called QTH locator (aka Maidenhead Locator)

For example, for a wild caught A. agassizii full name could be

Apistogramma agassizii FI96IJ (Rio Solimões) 13.04.2011

With such system you will not lack the collection / population history. FI96IJ is a square of roughly 10 x 10 km only at Rio Solimões, collection date 13.04.2011, you may add also your expedition abbreviation, collection point number etc like Killifish guys do...

And we need to have a single free available source on the internet where expeditioners can upload their info, and all other apisto guys can see such info.

When you breed this wild fish we can follow later like

Apistogramma agassizii FI96IJ (Rio Solimões) 13.04.2011 F1, F2, F3 etc generations. So that we know exactly that we are dealing with a pure apisto species line...

These are just my thoughts...

 

[Mike Wise]

Some things to consider. The different forms of A. caetei occur in river systems that have been isolated from each other for at least 2 million years. I doubt that the forms of A. agassizii have been isolated for so long. I believe that A. agassizii (in all of its forms) is a superspecies. A superspecies is a species actively undergoing speciation into several different species. Some populations (like A. sp. Tefé and A. sp. Blauspiegel from A. agassizii) have already been isolated from the rest of the gene pool long enough to develop into separate species that produce hybrid problems when crossed with other populations of A. agassizii. I have been told that genetic studies for A. agassizii populations are now under way. That's all I know. My only problem with genetic studies is the same as those of physical taxonomic studies: what (and who) determines what is needed to separate one population as a new species? This is where the "splitters vs. lumpers" appear. Me? I'd love to be a lumper when it comes to assigning species, but a splitter when it comes to breeding. The problem is that genetic studies have shown that the genus Apistogramma is undergoing speciation faster than most other freshwater fish.

I (and many scientists) certainly would love to have a system as you proposed. The problem is that it requires a dedicated group of people (who collect in the wild) to maintain such a system. Sadly, cichlid people in general don't seem to be as interested in this process as killi people. Why this is, I don't know.

 

[Mike Wise]

Some things to consider. The different forms of A. caetei occur in river systems that have been isolated from each other for at least 2 million years. I doubt that the forms of A. agassizii have been isolated for so long. I believe that A. agassizii (in all of its forms) is a superspecies. A superspecies is a species actively undergoing speciation into several different species. Some populations (like A. sp. Tefé and A. sp. Blauspiegel from A. agassizii) have already been isolated from the rest of the gene pool long enough to develop into separate species that produce hybrid problems when crossed with other populations of A. agassizii. I have been told that genetic studies for A. agassizii populations are now under way. That's all I know. My only problem with genetic studies is the same as those of physical taxonomic studies: what (and who) determines what is needed to separate one population as a new species? This is where the "splitters vs. lumpers" appear. Me? I'd love to be a lumper when it comes to assigning species, but a splitter when it comes to breeding. The problem is that genetic studies have shown that the genus Apistogramma is undergoing speciation faster than most other freshwater fish.

I (and many scientists) certainly would love to have a system as you proposed. The problem is that it requires a dedicated group of people (who collect in the wild) to maintain such a system. Sadly, cichlid people in general don't seem to be as interested in this process as killi people. Why this is, I don't know.

 

[Yuri]

re: photographs - I was asking for your own photographs, taken by youself. Same is to other guys... Why not to share if you have taken nice photographs of A. agassizii? Sometimes people restrict them themselves for no reason... later they change their rules etc etc I don't see a crumb of problem to post pictures. We don't take them just to watch ourselves, do we?

A few pics below... This is my pride - Apistogramma agassizii male and his female. It's a captive bred "Blue-Red" color strain. If someone wants to use them - on you go guys, no restrictions! Enjoy!

 

[Yuri]

Since I don't have wild caught A. agassizii I can upload my captive bred forms... Below is a pair of Apistogramma agassizii "Fire-Red" form.

These are the photographs taken by myself. Anybody can use them without asking me.

 

[Yuri]

Below is my Apistogramma agassizii "Yellow-Red" captive bred form.

If you are in the UK and have A. agassizii different from the pictures below, and want to sell them to me please PM... Juvenile are preferable. Thanks.

 

[Yuri]

Males' faces of all three forms listed below... just to compare.

Apistogramma agassizii "Blue Red"

Apistogramma agassizii "Fire Red"

Apistogramma agassizii "Yellow Red"

 

[Yuri]

And full images together...

Apistogramma agassizii "Yellow Red" / "Gelbrot"

Apistogramma agassizii "Blue Red" / "Blaurot"

Apistogramma agassizii "Fire Red" / "Wilhelm"

 

[Racine Vice]

Beautiful fish Yuri.

 

[Alex92]

Interesting thread!

Here are a few pics of the couple I maintain, given last week-end by a friend.
These are a offspring from a wild couple (F1).
They have been ID'd but before I give you the species name (according to previous owner) I would like to have a second opinion from you or Mike:

 

[Vintage]

Interesting thread!

Here are a few pics of the couple I maintain, given last week-end by a friend.
These are a offspring from a wild couple (F1).
They have been ID'd but before I give you the species name (according to previous owner) I would like to have a second opinion from you or Mike:

It seems like Agassizi tefe for me!!

 

[Yuri]

Nice fish Alex, thanks. It looks like Apistogramma sp. aff. Tefé... It's not really a Rotrücken morph, but as far as I can see there is reddish portion just above the lateral band. Pictures look quite dark. Abdominal stripes look quite wide... Do you know the collection place?