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Apistogramma agassizii

Discussion in 'Apistogramma' started by Yuri, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Hi Guys,

    I am new to this forum, and hope to get a lot of new details to me about Apistogrammas.

    Question to apisto gurus... I'm trying to understand / make it clear a list of A. agassizii strains, forms, etc.

    Please have a look below. Am I right saying that this is a complete list of MAIN "groups" of A. agassizii without dividing them by river sources and sub. colour morphs. Will try to do that later, after this list is clear...

    01. Apistogramma agassizii var. «Blue» or «Blau» («Typical» or «Typisch») Few river sources, no colour variations
    02. Apistogramma agassizii var. «Red» or «Rot» Few river sources, no colour variations
    03. Apistogramma cf. agassizii var. «Broad Black Caudal Edge» Few River sources/colour variations
    04. Apistogramma cf. agassizii var. «Net» or «Netz» Few River sources/colour variations
    05. Apistogramma agassizii «Captive Bred Morphs» No river sources, few colour variations
    06. Apistogramma cf. agassizii Few River sources/colour variations
    07. Apistogramma sp. aff. agassizii (Tefé) Single river source, few colour variations
    08. Apistogramma cf. agassizii var. «Pastel» or «Pastell» Few river sources, no colour variations

    What I use at the moment to make the list:

    DATZ South American Dwarf Cichlids
    Cichlid Atlas 1 and 2
    AquaLog South American Cichlids 2
    AquaLog Extra / the latest Apistogramma
    + a few other books and the Internet

    Is something missing in the list?

    Crossed Apistogramma agassizii x Apistogramma sp. aff. agassizii (Tefé) / DATZ South American Dwarf Cichlids is out of question...

    Thanks for your attention....
  2. briztoon

    briztoon Member

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  3. apistodave

    apistodave Member Staff Member

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    Agassizi

    You're gonna have a tough time with this one--the colors are so variable!
  4. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    As I have already said apart from books I use Internet sources as well :)

    These Caudal Fin Patters (I think by Mike Wise) have been already checked and noted by myself, thanks.

    Since there are no other suggestions I assume there is no additions / corrections to the list above.

    Lets try to work out on each "line"...

    I assume that the holotype form is Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» or «Blau» («Typical» or «Typisch»)... is this correct?
  5. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Uwe Römer in the Cichlid Atlas 1 says that Apistogramma agassizii lectotype was collected at Rio Manacapuru of Amazonas state in north-western Brazil.

    Then he says that the paralectotypes were collected from Óbidos (Rio Amazonas) in Pará, Brazil; Lago Saracá (Rio Amazonas), Brazil.

    "Distribution" on pages 252 - 254 is quite confused and looks like all cf. locations mixed up. "Remarks" on pages 258 - 264 are more confusing.

    So far we have:

    Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» / «Blau» (Manacapuru) Rio Manacapuru (State of Amazonas, Brazil) Cichlid Atlas 1 (Page 250), Uwe Römer
    Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» / «Blau» (Óbidos) Vicinity of Óbidos, Rio Amazonas (State of Pará, Brazil) Cichlid Atlas 1 (Page 250), Uwe Römer
    Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» / «Blau» (Saracá) Vicinity of Silves, Lago Saracá, Rio Amazonas (State of Amazonas, Brazil) Cichlid Atlas 1 (Page 250), Uwe Römer

    My questions are -

    For Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» (Typical) - Are all these specimens (see above) were 100% colour-wise the same? What are other recorded locations where Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» (Typical) was found, identical to each other? Is there a clear info source for this?

    Just saying from Rio Ucayali to mouth of the Amazon is not enough (Cichlid Atlas 2, page 378). I would like to compare locations Apistogramma agassizii «Blue with other listed locations of Apistogramma cf. agassizii strains.
  6. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

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    As David wrote, you'll have a real variation of opinions on this. One problem is color. A. agassizii is highly polychromatic within a population - and even within a spawn! In this regard, it is best to ignore color for the most part when determining species/populations. Right now, I recognize 7 different forms within the A. agassizii superspecies:

    A. agassizii (Type Form) - U. Río Amazonas (Peru) to L. Rio Solimões (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu) (A 241) - Río Ampiyacu (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Broad Black Caudal Seam) - Right bank (south) tributaries of the Amazon between Manaus & Belém (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Marañon) (A 242) - Río Marañon (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Netz/Net) - Left bank (north) tributaries of the Amazon between Manaus & Alenquer (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Pastel) (A 239) - L. Ucayali (near Requina & Jenaro Herrera, Río Tamshiyacu; Río Tapiche?) (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Purus) (A 238) - U. Rio Purus (Brazil)

    Each form exhibits a distinct set of features that distinguish it from the other forms. Many of the forms have several different populations, but each form shows a contiguous distribution pattern. I feel that these represent population isolation that are moving toward becoming separate species (if they aren't already!). You'll notice that I do not include A. gephyra, A. sp. Tefé, and A. sp. Blauspiegel/Vitoria do Xingu in the list of A. agassizii species. Crossbreeding attempts of these species with A. agassizii show that the offspring are hybrids: low survival rates of fry, high infertility of males, and scale deformation.
  7. CopabX

    CopabX Member

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    I agree with dave and mike. When I first got my apistos, they were labeled fire red even though many in the tank were various mixes of yellows, red, and blues.
  8. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

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    The Fire Red Agassiz is a domestic form. It was originally produced by crossing A. cf. agassizii (BBCS) Reb-back/Santarem population with domestic red color morphs. Each succeeding generation produced better fish with more red on the body and fins. If there were colors other than red with a pale yellow body, I would say that these were either early strains and someone wasn't culling for color properly.
  9. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Thanks guys.

    Mike, in Cichlid Atlas 2 on pages 378 - 380 in the "Nominal List..." Uwe and you classify much more local morphs than you have listed here. Am I missing something or that info in CA2 is outdated?

    For example what does make Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Purus), Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu) and Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Río Marañón) different morphs in your view, and what doesn't for Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Trombetas) A237?

    Are these types (see below) not that much different as above mentioned A. cf. forms?

    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Apeú)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Careiro)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Curuaí)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Itaituba)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Lagoa Janauacá)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Manaquiri)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Pará)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Porto Velho)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Tapajós)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Tapajós) «Red-Back» or «Rotrücken» ?
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Tocantins)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge» (Xingú)

    To make them all just a Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Broad Black Caudal Edge»?

    I would ask the same about A. cf Netz forms listed below:

    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Net» or «Netz» (Alenquer)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Net» or «Netz» (Nhamundá)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Net» or «Netz» (Trombetas)
    Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Net» or «Netz» (Urubu)

    Thanks.
  10. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Uwe says that "As a rule, specimens from different imports should not be bred, since it must be assumed that individuals from far-flung localities are genetically incompatible. etc... " Cichlid Atlas 1, page 258.

    Does it not contradict with the fact that Apistogramma agassizii (Typical, same species) has the broadest distribution range from Peru to the Atlantic ocean? I mean, should we not consider each so called "agassizii locality" as a different morph?
  11. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

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    The 'forms' I listed in my first post are, in my opinion, distinct. If not separate species by the old "viable reproduction definition", they are meristically and genetically distinct. There is a problem with genetic-derived species. There is no precise definition of how genetically distinct 2 populations need to be, to be considered separate species. This is why I use the term 'form' instead of specie, or even the now outdated term subspecies.

    I didn't list all of the different populations that I have on my species list because they are not what I consider sufficiently distinct to be considered separate forms. Therefore all of the populations of A. cf. agassizii (BBCS) are one form. They are different from all of the populations that belong to A. cf. agassizii (Netz). The best way to look at it is the following:

    Species complex: agassizii-complex: A. agassizii, A. gephyra, etc.
    Superspecies: A. agassizii
    Forms: A. cf. agassizii (BBCS), A. cf agassizii (Netz), etc.
    Populations: A. cf. agassizii (BBCS - Apeú), A. cf. agassizii (BBCS - Careiro), etc.
    Collecting Locality: (Rarely used, except when precise collecting locality is known.
    I tend to agree with Uwe about not mixing populations. We still don't know enough about many species with wide distributions to actually say what is or is not the same species. I have no problem with people crossing different forms/populations for esthetics reasons. What I am against is people claiming these crosses to be from a specific form or population.

    Right now, I keep 2 different forms of A. agassizii: A. agassizii (Leticia), which I personally collected with TomC in Colombia, and A. cf. agassizii (Madeira-Gold), which originally came from Marco Lacerda who collected many new-to-the-hobby species back in the 90s/2000s. I would never cross these two forms. They are quite distinct and even require different breeding conditions for successful spawns.
  12. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Thanks Mike.

    Do you know any source of accurately recorded collections of Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» (Typical) with location names / co-ordinates?

    Do you believe that the Apistogramma agassizii lectotype and paralectotypes collected by the Thayer expedition in 1865 - 1866 at Manacapuru, Óbidos, and Lago Saracá are the same form known as Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» (Typical)?


    Rio Manacapuru, Vicinity of Manacapuru, State of Amazonas, Brazil 03°16’S 60°37’W Cichlid Atlas 1 (Uwe Römer), Page 250

    Rio Amazonas, Vicinity of Óbidos, State of Pará, Brazil 01°56’S 55°31’W Cichlid Atlas 1 (Uwe Römer), Page 250

    Lago Saracá, Rio Amazonas, Vicinity of Silves, State of Amazonas, Brazil 02°51’S 58°13’W Cichlid Atlas 1 (Uwe Römer), Page 250
  13. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

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    The series of fish that Steindachner used to describe A. agassizii came from at least 3 maybe 4 different collecting sites in the middle to lower Amazon. Since Steindachner never listed a holotype specimen (they weren't needed in 1875 for a valid description), Kullander picked out a representative specimen (a lectotype) from the series of fish Steindachner used to describe A. agassizii. Kullander (1980) picked the largest and best preserved specimen - a 39.3mm male from Manacapuru. Much has changed in our understanding of this supespecies since 1980.

    Apistogramma agassizii «Blue» is only a color description. Koslowski (2002) shows several different color morphs collected together in Lago Manacapuru, including blue. I have own/owned blue morphs of A. agassizii from Leticia (type form), A. cf. agassizii BBCS, A. cf. agassizii (Netz). I am confident to say that blue morphs occur in other forms, too. Ignore names with a color in them. All of the forms can have a blue morph.
  14. apistodave

    apistodave Member Staff Member

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    fire reds


    The fire reds were developed by Frank Wilhelm, I saw some of the first ones way back in 1999, If I remember correctly the first ones showed up as sports but I could be wrong about that.
  15. animalmgc

    animalmgc Forum Donor

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    Is there also 2 forms of the fire red?I've seen some with a blue trim on the tail and the fish I bought from Dave which I don't see the blue edge
  16. apistodave

    apistodave Member Staff Member

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    Oh Boy

    And then if you use cladistics-----------------------------
  17. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Yap... Forget that "Blue" in the name, let's call this prototype form just Apistogramma agassizii «Typical».

    So does it belong to «BBCS» or «Netz» group? If not than we have 3 main distinct groups (aka forms):

    «Typical»
    «Netz»
    «BBCS»


    ... accordingly these 3 groups of Apistogramma agassizii are split in to populations / localities.

    I assume we can add «Pastel» group as a separate one as well, am I correct?

    Also I'm not quite sure about Apistogramma sp. aff. agassizii (Tefé)... To me it seems a separate species of Apistogramma...

    Captive bred morphs would fall in to an exceptional group.
  18. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member

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    Right now I consider at least 7 forms as distint:

    A. agassizii (Type Form) - U. Río Amazonas (Peru) to L. Rio Solimões (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu) (A 241) - Río Ampiyacu (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Broad Black Caudal Seam) - Right bank (south) tributaries of the Amazon between Manaus & Belém (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Marañon) (A 242) - Río Marañon (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Netz/Net) - Left bank (north) tributaries of the Amazon between Manaus & Alenquer (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Pastel) (A 239) - L. Ucayali (near Requina & Jenaro Herrera, Río Tamshiyacu; Río Tapiche?) (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Purus) (A 238) - Rio Purus (Brazil)

    "A. sp. aff. agassizii Tefé" is the same species as A. sp. Tefé. This is not a member of the A. agassizii superspecies. Meristics, genetics and crossbreeding studies all indicate that this is a separate species in its own right. There is, however, a population of A. agassizii (type form) found in the lower part of the Rio Tefé, but it has never been found with A. sp. Tefé.

    Staeck (2003), if I remember correctly, wrote that the Red-back Santarem population of A. agassizii (A. cf. agassizii BBCS) was being used to produce fish with more red in the body. He doesn't mention the Fire Red form specifically by name, but I assume it was the end result. If anyone could produce such a fish, it certain was the late, great Frank Wilhelm.

    Are there more than one Fire Red Agassizi? I'm sure there are - just like there are many different morphs of 2X & 3X Red Cockatoos. This aggie morph probably isn't 'set', so some of the less scrupulous breeders are offering many specimens of lesser quality compared to others.
  19. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Mike, I don't understand how you mix "location" and "physical" forms...

    From your list:

    "physical" forms:

    A. agassizii (Type Form) - U. Río Amazonas (Peru) to L. Rio Solimões (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Broad Black Caudal Seam) - Right bank (south) tributaries of the Amazon between Manaus & Belém (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Netz/Net) - Left bank (north) tributaries of the Amazon between Manaus & Alenquer (Brazil)
    A. cf. agassizii (Pastel) (A 239) - L. Ucayali (near Requina & Jenaro Herrera, Río Tamshiyacu; Río Tapiche?) (Peru)

    All above are located in various localities...

    Then you put in the same list following...

    A. cf. agassizii (Ampiyacu) (A 241) - Río Ampiyacu (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Marañon) (A 242) - Río Marañon (Peru)
    A. cf. agassizii (Purus) (A 238) - Rio Purus (Brazil)

    Logically they all are A. cf. agassizii from various localities (3 in this case, but I'm sure there are more...).
  20. Yuri

    Yuri New Member

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    Is Apistogramma cf. agassizii (Trombetas) listed in the DATZ book as A237 the same species as Apistogramma cf. agassizii «Net» or «Netz» (Trombetas) listed in the Cichlid Atlas 2, Uwe Römer?

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