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Hardwater fish

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
I am trying to create a Costa Rica biotope with A. multispinosa, Poecillia mexicana, and eventually a pair of Cryptoheros.

Is the usual method of buffering with baking soda and epsom salt acceptable long term? I can't help but feel that something is missing. In the past, wild type livebearers did not do well for me. I attribute a lot of the problems I had to water hardness. I am concerned the Poecillia mexicana will not do well if the water is not sufficiently "hard".

Edited to add my water values:
PH-6.5
GH-1 to 3
KH- 1 to 3
TDS- 150-250
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
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1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
You're right, something IS missing: Calcium. A hardness test kit only measures the total Ca + Mg, unless you get separate ion-specific test kits like reef people use. If you're raising GH hardness with only one of the two major hardness ions, fish and plants may suffer.
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
So what would be the ideal mix? Potentially one of the available products for African cichlids dosed at 1/2" strength? A marine mix? I already do water changes by filling up a tote and letting it aerate. So the additional effort of adding a scoop of powder is a non issue.

The X. helleri "Rio otapa" showed signs such as deformed growth, odd faces and body shape. The A. multispinosa that shared the tank did not show the same problems, which leads me to believe it was water hardness. I know my observation is not conclusive, but I suspect soft water had a lot to do with the fact that X. helleri never did well for me.

Gerald, we discussed this on CAAS some years ago, but I can't find the thread.
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
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343
I added a HOB filter for extra flow. I can fill that up with aragonite. In addition to adding baking soda and epsom salt. Do you think that would provide the needed salts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
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5 Year Member
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11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
I doubt that you can get enough coral in a HOB filter to do much good and water/media interaction is not long, time-wise. I've never been a fan of playing 'chemistry set' with a tank by adding chemicals directly to a tank or in a filter. I find it best (safer) to do it in a separate tank and add treated water to the tank as water changes.
 

gerald

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5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
An ugly but cheap & effective method (my specialty) is to make an airlift using 1/2" or 3/4" diam pvc pipe inside a tall quart food container (or canning jar), and fill the jar with aragonite or crushed coral. This slowly releases a fish-friendly balance of Ca, Mg and HCO3 ions. Use it either in the fish tank or water-conditioning barrel (or both).
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Gerald, that would work if I had a fish room! I love ugly and effective.

I am going to experiment some. I think the DIY mix of epsom salt, baking soda, and marine reef salt would supply everything needed. I just need to experiment with the ratios. The reef mixes have calcium added.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I am going to experiment some. I think the DIY mix of epsom salt, baking soda, and marine reef salt would supply everything needed. I just need to experiment with the ratios. The reef mixes have calcium added.
You don't need the "reef salts", it is really a way of adding sodium chloride (NaCl), all the other salts are at much, much lower levels. I would swap the reef salts for calcium chloride (CaCl), you can buy "food grade" if you are worried about purity etc. It should be a cheaper option as well.

Is it a planted tank? if it is you could swap out the "baking soda" (NaHCO3) for potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). If you don't have plants it doesn't matter which you use.

Once ions are in solution it doesn't matter what compound they came from, all K+ ions etc. are the same.

cheers Darrel
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Darrel,

You believe a mixture of NaHCO3, CaCl, and MgSO4 would provide everything needed to my water?
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
You believe a mixture of NaHCO3, CaCl, and MgSO4 would provide everything needed to my water?
Yes it should do in terms of raising dKH (HCO3- ions) and dGH (Ca++ & Mg++) ions.

If it is a planted tank you would need to add potassium (K), and you might need to add trace elements. I think the fish should get these from their food, but I only keep planted tanks and I don't know much about animal physiology. This link gives some workings for planted tanks <"James' Planted Tank - Re-mineralising RO">.

This page tells you what is in Seachem's <"CA salt mix">. I might be being cynical, but my suspicion is that most commercial salt mixes contain NaCl as a cheap bulking agent, rather than for any osmotic reasons. Have a look at Joe Gargas's <"Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation, Ionic Imbalance & pH">.

You won't need much magnesium. What ever it says on the container the MgSO4 will actually be "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) when you use it, so only about 10% magnesium.

Calcium chloride is very hygroscopic, so you need to store it in an air tight container (or the freezer), and it will be the dihydrate (CaCl.H2O).

cheers Darrel
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Hi all,Yes it should do in terms of raising dKH (HCO3- ions) and dGH (Ca++ & Mg++) ions.

If it is a planted tank you would need to add potassium (K), and you might need to add trace elements. I think the fish should get these from their food, but I only keep planted tanks and I don't know much about animal physiology. This link gives some workings for planted tanks <"James' Planted Tank - Re-mineralising RO">.

This page tells you what is in Seachem's <"CA salt mix">. I might be being cynical, but my suspicion is that most commercial salt mixes contain NaCl as a cheap bulking agent, rather than for any osmotic reasons. Have a look at Joe Gargas's <"Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation, Ionic Imbalance & pH">.

You won't need much magnesium. What ever it says on the container the MgSO4 will actually be "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) when you use it, so only about 10% magnesium.

Calcium chloride is very hygroscopic, so you need to store it in an air tight container (or the freezer), and it will be the dihydrate (CaCl.H2O).

cheers Darrel

Thank you, Darrel. The article by Joe was a great read.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
The article by Joe was a great read.
There is a lot of good stuff out there on the WWW, it is just a case of finding it among all the crud. I think that "therapeutic salt" addition is more of a North American thing than in Europe.

On other forums I've often suggested plants to people as a way of improving tank conditions, but they say they've already tried plants and they all died, a little bit more searching and you find that they add industrial levels of salt, because "their LFS told them you can't keep fish without it".

I find water chemistry a really difficult subject to post on, possibly because a lot of it is "shades of grey" and people tend to like "black and white" answers.

cheers Darrel
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Darrel,

I think you do a great job explaining water chemistry, it is not an easy topic to cover or advise on. And taking the time to post helpful links is much appreciated it. The source for Poecillia mexicana is sold out at the moment, so I have a few months to play around with my recipe.

Is there any specific values you would shoot for if you were in my shoes? From the article you linked the author's recipe provides the following:
24ppm Calcium
8ppm Magnesium
16ppm Potassium
7ppm Chloride
GH=5
KH=1

For my purposes, GH and KH would need to be higher, but then calcium, magnesium, and potassium would increase as well. I need some kind of baseline to aim for. I am going to keep plants in the tank.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
From the article you linked the author's recipe provides the following:
24ppm Calcium
8ppm Magnesium
16ppm Potassium
7ppm Chloride
GH=5
KH=1

For my purposes, GH and KH would need to be higher, but then calcium, magnesium, and potassium would increase as well. I need some kind of baseline to aim for. I am going to keep plants in the tank.
You can just up the amount of potassium (bi)carbonate KHCO3 (or K2CO3) to raise the dKH, and the CaCl to raise the dGH. It isn't an exact science.

If you add a lot of KHCO3 you will begin to see white precipitate forming as CaCO3 comes out of solution due to the common ion effect.

I'd aim for a TDS of about 600ppm (~900 microS) and that should cover everything.

cheers Darrel
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Hey Darrel,

I added 20 gallons of tap in a plastic tote. The units may not mean much to you. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I do not think you use teaspoon and tablespoon across the pond? I thought I would include the results of my test. I do not have a calcium test kit.

Tap water:
KH-2
GH-2
TDS- 250 microS

Added:
2 teaspoon of KHCO3
1 teaspoon CaCO3
1 tablespoon Epsom salt

Results:
KH-5
GH-4 or 5 (The titration test water was clear at 4 drops)
TDS- 598 microS

I thought that was still a little too soft so I added an additional:
1 teaspoon of KHO3
2 teaspoons of CaCO3

Results:
KH- 7 or 8
GH- 14
TDS- 885 microS

The final result seems good to me.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
....I added 20 gallons of tap in a plastic tote. The units may not mean much to you. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I do not think you use teaspoon and tablespoon across the pond?
We are just confused in the UK, we use a mixture of metric, imperial and unofficial measures. For us a teaspoon is 6g and a tablespoon 15g. I think that the American "cup" measure is the one we don't use.
I thought I would include the results of my test. I do not have a calcium test kit.
Tap water:
KH-2
GH-2
TDS- 250 microS

Added:
2 teaspoon of KHCO3
1 teaspoon CaCO3
1 tablespoon Epsom salt

Results:
KH-5
GH-4 or 5 (The titration test water was clear at 4 drops)
TDS- 598 microS

I thought that was still a little too soft so I added an additional:
1 teaspoon of KHO3
2 teaspoons of CaCO3

Results:
KH- 7 or 8
GH- 14
TDS- 885 microS

The final result seems good to me.
That seem fine. It is quite likely that not all of the CaCO3 will have gone into solution. If the dKH falls in the tank water that CaCO3 will go into solution, it is acting as your carbonate buffer.

You can make up a salts mix of 3:3:1 KHCO3:CaCO3:MgSO4.7H2O and then when you make up water change water just add the salt mix until you get to ~900 microS.

cheers Darrel
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
You may have caught me, but I made a mistake in my previous post. For CaCO3, I am actually adding the food grade calcium chloride (CaCl).

If I make a mix, is it fine to store the salts in a plastic bag in the freezer? You mentioned CaCl is hygroscopic, so I am storing it in the freezer double-bagged in sealed plastic bags.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I am actually adding the food grade calcium chloride (CaCl).

If I make a mix, is it fine to store the salts in a plastic bag in the freezer? You mentioned CaCl is hygroscopic, so I am storing it in the freezer double-bagged in sealed plastic bags.
Yes it is fine.

Because it is calcium chloride (CaCl2.6H2O) (rather than calcium carbonate (CaCO3)) you may find it easier to make up a litre of stock solution, all three of the compounds are highly soluble in water (calcium carbonate is insoluble in water, but soluble in weak acids).

cheers Darrel
 

aarhud

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
343
Darrel,

I will try creating a stock solution. A liquid would be easier to store and dose.

I am going to change 20 gallons every day until the tank water reads ~900 microS. The Conductivity meter is such a great tool, I like that I can dip my meter in for a quick answer.
 

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