Agassizi rio nanay

[flowandbehold]

Hi All, I'm new to this forum and just wanted to ask some breeding tips on Agassizi

From the get go things didn't go according to plan. Ordered 2M & 4F for a 90G community and got delivered 3 pairs. While in quarantine the dominant male bullied the other 2 to exhaustion. I finally released the 1 remaining male and 3F in the 90G but the dominant F ended bullying the rest including the remaining male, which in turn saw no favors from the other 2 females. After 9 months I have not seen any signs of spawning.

Yesterday I noticed the male acting listless almost crawling along the sand bed, same signs showed by the other males before their demise.

Do the female Agassizi have a line throughout the lenght of their body or just a spot behind the gills? As I'm starting to doubt whether they're really the same species

Water parameters are ~6.2pH and 2-4KH with GH <6 and 27C temp, NO3 around 10-15ppm

 

[Mike Wise]

Sorry to learn about your poor luck. Yes, female A. agassizii usually show a lateral band while in a neutral mood. The band in dominant and breeding females typically is replaced by a dark lateral spot. Without knowing information on how the tank is set up, water maintenance, water values (they appear fine for the most part), foods and feeding, etc. it's hard to make suggestions on how to encourage breeding. BTW old proverb (or maybe it just me that's old!): a community tank is not a breeding tank.

 

[MickeM]

Maybe the loss of your Apistos may be due to internal flagellates.. in the stomach/digesting-system..(this is often the most common health problem with Apistos..)
Then they often move in a S-shaped movement along the sand , as you are mentioning..
and they also becomes thinner around the belly as time passes.. (can not digest properly, or completely stop eating!!??)
It may not effect other fishes in the tank, but I guess they may be hosts of the flagellates anyway..
I think it is the same flagellates that cause the horrific "hole-in-the-head-disease" at discus-fishes..

Have a look at this link and search the web+ this site for info and you will find more details if needed..
I know there are several variants of this med...!! (different brands in Europe/U.S. !!??)
https://www.google.se/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hexa-ex

BTW.. Post some pics if you can... for ID or else!!!

 

[flowandbehold]

Thanks Mike & Micke,

A fortnight ago one angelfish in the same tank was showing signs of possible flagellates or internal parasites, displaying a sunken chest. I went ahead and treated the whole tank with Kusuri Discus Wormer. Since then this fish seems to have recovered well. The strange thing is that the remaining female apistos don't show any similar symptoms. Yesterday I fed some baby brine shrimp over the clay pot in which the male was hiding. He came out for a few nibbles but retreated back in soon after.

The same point could be made regarding incorrect water parameters, if these are not ideal then all the apistos would show signs of discontent.

I'll try to post some pics later today from home

 

[flowandbehold]

Ok sorry for the late reply.

This morning I saw what I thought was the male in its final stages lodged upside down within the roots. On pulling it out I find it's the 3rd female in packing order. Before she used to turn from orange to dark grey with only the fins showing some orange by being chased around by the dominant F. She was laying on its side or upside down having a pale yellow appearance.

This female is still in a holding plastic cup, unsure of whether to dispose of or try to save it (which I think is a lost cause)

The male instead has taken cover in the worst place to take a decent pic with my phone's crappy camera. The round front corners of the tank don't help with light refracting from the flash either.

Any suggestions as to what may be the cause to this sudden illness and how to treat or prevent would be of real help.

Thanks

 

[MickeM]

Hi again...

The flagellates are a quite tough to get rid off as it is.... But one more thing....

I get some bad suspicions about your gravel/sand.. It looks calcareous..
This may cause high pH + other effects/reactions when medicating..?????
Maybe it creates some xtra problems for the healing of your Apistos..??

 

[MickeM]

Your sand looks similar to the sand used in this thread... (But maybe not the same health-problems ..)

http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/my-a-hongsloi-story-and-advice-please.19289/#post-94818

 

[MickeM]

... and here is another thread with links and some tips in it..
Maybe this can help you out what the trouble really is about, and what to do about it...
http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/continuous-hole-in-head-deaths.19365/#post-94969

..there are probably some more helpful threads if you use the search-function up in the right corner of this site!!??

..and also...maybe it was a sand/pH-problem to begin with!!??.. and not an illness from the start..
It is always tough to ID problems without any pics..

 

[gerald]

Flow -- Based on the pH, KH, GH, NO3 values in your 1st post, I'm guessing this is a CO2-enriched and fertilized tank, correct? Elevated CO2 and ferts might be additional stressors on your Apistos. If healthy they can probably deal with it, but sick fish may have trouble recovering in these conditions. Metronidazole and FLUbendazole are some of the meds used for treating intestinal protozoan infections.

Micke - i've seen Apistos do that S-curving behavior and wondered what the cause was. Thanks - that makes sense - irritation in the gut.

 

[flowandbehold]

Quite the opposite gerald, it's got absolutely no plants in it, so no ferts are added.

Had a bunch of pathos house plant cuttings in it until over a month ago which started to wilt since I covered the tank to reduce water evaporation.

I use rain water from the well & add dechlorinated tap water in a ~6:1 ratio. This water is usually left to settle overnight in a 70L bin with a pump and only heat it in time for the water change.

The male apisto is as if he's hiding from something, laying in the least accessible crevices. Whenever he's out in the open, his swimming looks way too labored. As I said earlier I don't think the water parameters are the issue, as the other 2 females are as active as ever.

 

[MickeM]

BTW flowandbehold..

I forgot to ask you...
What food do they get???
Some food (in large amounts) may cause problems...
I am usually feeding my grown Apistos with frozen, grown Artemia(Brine shrimp) ..and sometimes with live BlackWorms.., but I never feed with B-worms more than 2-3 times/week..
I have also gotten some dead young Apistos when feeding my small catfishes in the same tank(Nanoptopoma sp) with too many/much green tabs..(containing algae I guess).
The Apistos then had "swollen" stomachs...!!!

 

[flowandbehold]

Hi MikeM, I offer them 4 different dried foods, frozen bloodworms and artemia as well as freshly hatched BBS.

The male perished last night after almost tearing the tank down trying to move him to a QT. He kept wriggling into the tightest crannies among the driftwood.Still can't really tell the cause of death and the remaining 2 females are doing just fine, with the dominant one chasing the other inhabitants around.

Here are some Q's I'd like to pose:

The LFS is taking orders and will try another male. Would you suggest to try him with the dominant F in a 28L tank straight after quarantining him or should he go in with the 2 females in the community and let him get used to them + have places to hide in case she tries to rough him up?.

From your experience any particular food, parameters, temperature, etc are inducive of breeding behavior?

Also what method do you use to grow BBS into adult ones?

Thanks MikeM

 

[MickeM]

OK..
I have almost no exerience feeding Apistos with dry food..especially bloodworms (I think worms may contain much fat!!.. and Apistos seem to prefer protein-rich food/insects !!?? ..but "red" mosquito-larvae may be harder to digest than the white+black)

Can you remember if it is the large/dominant fishes who have perished one by one??
If so.. it may be due to the fact that larger/dominant fishes often "gets hold"(?) of the area where you feed the fishes..
This in comb with an exessive amount of dried food(also containing air) for the "Alfa"-fishes would maybe then explain why the smaller females/fishes have managed to stay alive..(less food???) I have many times seen newly-fed goldfishes float like styrofoam!! probably due to airpockets inside..
Fishes are often so eager to get food that they eat too much at once.. and this might result in problems.. since dry food/flakes also expands after a few minutes in the water/stomach....
Also remember that fishes may stand days/weeks without food at all.. they are not warmblooded..like us humans!!! We must get energy to keep body-temp!!
1-2 days without food every week may be a good long time prescription...

If not raw..? ,manufactured/produced food products may also pollute the water more than froozen food do.. since the food often contains more nutritions than the digestive-system can absorb.. This may lead to more restproducts(proteins?) than appreciated.
The bacterias and other living organism (snails, shrimps) may not "decompose" and absorb this before it negatively affects the waterquality when desolving..
When feeding dry food you may need to place the flakes/tabs in a cup of water first+feed with smaller amounts , IF this is the case..!!
But if possible.. my basic common advice is to feed with more raw froozen food than dry food.
If thawed(?) in cup of water.. you can also choose which fish you want to feed the most..by pooring it in, in different corners of the tank!!

Either tank you want to place the new male in.. I would redecorate the tank a little before putting him in.(without falling/"muddying" up the water)
Then you can make all fishes feel "new" to the enviroment(not just him).. and then perhaps no old territories are left to defend!!
But be sure to create sight-barriers and a diverse set-up with several "sections" ..(alternative places for all fishes that are being courted/dismissed)
This may be hard to create.. esp. if having few fishes in the tank..( The dominant fish will more easily spot+control the others/not so many to focus on.. )
..and also..the more "sections".. the better chances are to maintain several female-territories (with fry??) !!

In general.. if you have healthy fishes ..good food (live mosquito-larvae, blackworms, cyclops ..) results in better breeding results..
If possible..(?) .. go out in the nature in early spring time and net up some black mosquito-larvae from natural ponds.. (Best spawning-food ever!!)

OK/Correct waterquality is also a keyfactor..
My experience with "pH-6-7 Apistos".. - A small waterchange+ partial(10-20% of the tank-area) "hoovering-cleaning" of the sand may kickstar spawning within 1-2 days!! (if female is ready/full of eggs!!)
Many tropical fishes start spawning when the "rainy-period/season" starts!! (TDS/EC in the water drops!, Search in earlier threads..)

Temp 25-26C / 76-79F(?) will (for many Apistos) often produce a 50/50 ratio regarding the gender of the fry!

Breeding Brine shrimp to full size often demands some effort too I`ve heard.. Search for info+ as always....try and learn!!!

 

[flowandbehold]

Thanks for the detailed reply Mike,

I am constantly aware not to overfeed so I normally turn off the filter return and sprinkle some food in different parts (3 or 4) of the tank, be it dry, frozen or live BBS. Any frozen food is left to thaw in a plastic cup with some water from the tank to speed up the process.

I should probably set a fasting day during the week (e.g. Sunday), How about veggies as part of their diet? Had some bloated blue tetras some while back and feeding them chopped boiled peas did the trick.

Water changes sure do the trick, my rio Nanay F1 angels spawn every 3 weeks in the same community tank, with the same diet. Probably a separate tank and a new start for all apistos could be key.

I know some ppl put the excess water / remaining BBS in plastic tubs outdoors rather than throwing it away. The survivors are fed some yeast or spirulina, and have an air line added. Outside temperature surely not ideal at the moment.

Thanks

 

[MickeM]

I`ve also heard of someone feeding Apistos with peas.. But maybe then only as a complement ??
Interesting story about the blue tetras !!

A friend of mine got his Apistog. hongsloi to strictly live on live Springtails (Collembola sp.??).. being fed (and they were staying/living some days) at the surface+floating plants!
(Maybe a nice trick if you will go on a holiday for a week or so!!)

I envy all people living where you may put the tanks outside all year long!!