Apistogramma cf. pertensis ???

[Nuno Prazeres]

Hi

Can anyone confirm if this little guy is a male of this species?

Thanks

 

[Larry Rogers]

Cannot I'd from this clip

 

[Mike Wise]

Females show a clear caudal while males have a pattern of spots. I can't tell anything from this clip, sorry.

 

[Nuno Prazeres]

Thanks.

Just took a brief look at the tank a few minutes ago and came across this:

I do not know if it helps.

Anyway... If these are indeed A. cf. pertensis, where are they from and what type of habitat they live in? A. pertensis ecology is quite known from Rommer but not A. cf. pertensis.

Currently I have them in a 120 gal system (just a trio, 10 pencil fish and 30 cardinals). The bottom is fully covered with leaf litter. Temperature is 26 C, pH is 6.4 and TDS is 27.

Females are always spawning but the fry misteriously vanishes before I can spot them free swimming.

Are water conditions wrong?

I feed them solely live foor (spirulina enriched daphnia an grey mosquito larvae). The leaf litter is full of micro life - worms, cyclops and ostracodae - and they are always chewing aufwuchs. Never had Apistos that looked this healthy.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Currently I have them in a 120 gal system (just a trio, 10 pencil fish and 30 cardinals). The bottom is fully covered with leaf litter. Temperature is 26 C, pH is 6.4 and TDS is 27. Females are always spawning but the fry misteriously vanishes before I can spot them free swimming.

Are water conditions wrong?

I feed them solely live foor (spirulina enriched daphnia an grey mosquito larvae). The leaf litter is full of micro life - worms, cyclops and ostracodae - and they are always chewing aufwuchs. Never had Apistos that looked this healthy.

The tank and feeding sound perfect, and the TDS is pretty low, so your measured pH value is very much a ball-park figure, and may well be lower. You could try lowering the pH a little bit more, and adding a few more tannins.

My suspicion would be that it isn't water hardness issue, but the Cardinal Tetras eating the fry. Most "black-water" fish are very effective opportunistic predators.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

Most of the fish shown in CA 1&2 that are listed as A. pertensis are actually forms of A. cf. pertensis. Forms/species found under the name "A. cf. pertensis represent a 'superspecies' similar to that seen in A. agassizii (sensu lato). These pertensis-like forms inhabit rivers in the middle Brazilian Amazon region between the Rio Tefé/Japurá in the west and the Rio Tapajós in the east. Differences in populations are generally subtle. The DATZ book shows several different forms.

 

[MickeM]

Thanks.

Just took a brief look at the tank a few minutes ago and came across this:

I do not know if it helps.

Anyway... If these are indeed A. cf. pertensis, where are they from and what type of habitat they live in? A. pertensis ecology is quite known from Rommer but not A. cf. pertensis.

Currently I have them in a 120 gal system (just a trio, 10 pencil fish and 30 cardinals). The bottom is fully covered with leaf litter. Temperature is 26 C, pH is 6.4 and TDS is 27.

Females are always spawning but the fry misteriously vanishes before I can spot them free swimming.

Are water conditions wrong?

I feed them solely live foor (spirulina enriched daphnia an grey mosquito larvae). The leaf litter is full of micro life - worms, cyclops and ostracodae - and they are always chewing aufwuchs. Never had Apistos that looked this healthy.

Hi Nuno(?)+all..

If you have got worms+ ostracoda in the tank.. I guess they might be eating the eggs/wrigglers....
I`ve had suspicions of these 2 kind of animals myself...(In my non-annual killi-fish tanks..) Not sure of it though!!!???
But the ostracoda seems to be too small+quick , or not very tasty for some fishes to eat..
..and they are also very good in hiding between the gravel particles..
(Got ostracoda when I bought some new plants!!! I now keep a quarantine tank for plants whenever I can..., since it`s quite a project to get rid of them without adding any new predatory fishes/chemicals to do "the work"... )

/Micke

 

[Larry Rogers]

Mosquito larvae are not strictly vegetarian and can be dangerous to eggs and fry. If mother is gaurding closely they are usually safe but it is better to leave off the mosquitoes until your fry are at least twice size of larvae.

 

[Nuno Prazeres]

Thank you all. It seems I lost this one too. I have a friend who has a couple from the same shop and he is also experiencing the same: loss of fry. He keeps them in a smaller system without ostracosa or cardinal tetras
His water is not as soft as mine. Given this, I think it is either less than optimum water conditions or this is indeed a hard species to reproduce.

Concerning the mosquito larvae, they survive for 1 minute at most. I think cardinal tetras would rather explode than leaving a grey mosquito larvae survive.

 

[Larry Rogers]

Thank you all. It seems I lost this one too. I have a friend who has a couple from the same shop and he is also experiencing the same: loss of fry. He keeps them in a smaller system without ostracosa or cardinal tetras
His water is not as soft as mine. Given this, I think it is either less than optimum water conditions or this is indeed a hard species to reproduce.

Concerning the mosquito larvae, they survive for 1 minute at most. I think cardinal tetras would rather explode than leaving a grey mosquito larvae survive.

 

[Larry Rogers]

If the larvae reach the substrate about the only thing that can find them is corydorus or some other catfish

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If the larvae reach the substrate about the only thing that can find them is corydorus or some other catfish

I think that the "Grey Mosquito Larvae" are "Culicidae", so the larvae are air breathing, and normally reside at the waters surface (like the ones below).

They are the best food for conditioning fish, and if you <"collect the egg rafts"> (picture below), they are a good "trickle" food source for Gourami, Betta, Killi etc fry.

I've never had any problem with mosquito larvae, Chironomidae ("Blood-worms"), Ostracods or Daphnia and fry, but I've never put Ghost Midge (Chaoborus) larvae (or Cyclops) in with them, as I know they are potentially predatory.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nuno Prazeres]

Exactly!!!! Those are the larvae I feed them with. I also give them daphnia but they do prefer mosquito larvae.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Exactly!!!! Those are the larvae I feed them with. I also give them daphnia but they do prefer mosquito larvae.

There must be something about Mosquito larvae, all fish seem to really like them.

I've got a few Parosphromenus at the moment. I don't see them very often, as they mainly remain in the shadows amongst the leaves and plants.

They ignore Daphnia, will sometimes eat Grindal worms, usually eat Lumbriculus etc, but they will chase Mosquito larvae all the way to the surface.

cheers Darrel

 

[Larry Rogers]

Hi all, There must be something about Mosquito larvae, all fish seem to really like them.

I've got a few Parosphromenus at the moment. I don't see them very often, as they mainly remain in the shadows amongst the leaves and plants.

They ignore Daphnia, will sometimes eat Grindal worms, usually eat Lumbriculus etc, but they will chase Mosquito larvae all the way to the surface.

cheers Darrel

All mosquitos have similar larvae. Some get larger than others and some of the larger species are predatory, primarily cannibalistic but they will eat fry and eggs if available. The gray mosquito you are using is not native here. We do have a smaller mosquito, 3/16 inch adults, which I do sometimes feed me fish. I usually warn people about mosquitoes because a lot of inexperienced keepers go out and serine local streams and windup with dragonfly nymphs, damsel fly, predatory may fly and caddis species, stonefly, and the larger mosquitoes. All of these potential threats look harmless when small until they start eating your spawns.

There are actually four species locally that I use when I have time to isolate and cultivate. Providing a host for females is frowned upon so I usually wind up pulling that duty myself. I am therefore somewhat reluctant to keep cultures constantly. Locally I have identified three species that are predatory. In eastern Tennessee I had five predstory;N.C., five; S.C., seven, and south Florida, ten. There was a species in Florida that would feed on baby mollies.

 

[Nuno Prazeres]

Well here in Portugal where I live the common mosquitos that spawn in my outdoor Daphnia culture are from the species Culiseta longiareolata.

We have 41 species of mosquito here (including the one whose larvae are called bloodworm). There is a small park near my house where I can collect those too but I would say the Apistos do prefer the original grey larvae.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Locally I have identified three species that are predatory. In eastern Tennessee I had five predstory;N.C., five; S.C., seven, and south Florida, ten. There was a species in Florida that would feed on baby mollies.

That is interesting, I think in Europe we tend to forget that N. America has a much more diverse fauna. I've just had a look at predatory Toxorhynchites spp. etc.

I think in the UK all our "grey" Mosquito larvae are detrivores, and you only tend to find them in situations where there are few, if any, other invertebrates.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nuno Prazeres]

This recent photo might help to clarify this identificarion a little more.
By the way, this guy was threatning a few cardinal tetras who were too close to the hatching eggs.

 

[Mike Wise]

A. cf. pertensis; which form/population I can't say. The true A. pertensis has a more cylindrical body cross-section than A. cf. pertensis.