Unknown Apisto ID needed please!

[Charliem9]

Hi, I have had these two since this past October. I purchased two pair, but this pair killed off the other. If this pic isn't good enough please let me know and I will try and get better ones tomorrow. Also, as to note, the male is now mostly yellow and looks very similiar to a brooding female, friends who have seen the pair with fry have asked why I have two females in the tank. They also both have a small "mascara" like black line on the bottom of their bellies that starts after the pectoral fins and extends to the vent. Thanks for taking the time!

Charlie

 

[Mike Wise]

Photos isn't good enough for ID. All I can tell is that the fish belong to the regani-lineage, which includes over half the 300+ apisto species known. It probably is a member of either the eunotus-complex or macmasteri-group, but not positive. Check the identification sticky and answer as many of the questions as possible. That and better photos should help greatly.

 

[Charliem9]

Alright, sorry Mike here we go a little better this time hopefully.

Fish are wild caught. Male is very close to 3" TL female is right around 2" TL.

I believe these next pictures should be more helpful. The first three are of the female, the last three of the male. I included the last one even though it is rather blurry so that you can see that dark marking line on the belly that both the male and female sport.

If you need any other pictures/information please let me know! Thanks!

 

[gerald]

Sorry I cant help with ID, beyond "regani group" (male's barred tail may narrow the choices) - but I just wanted to point out what a nice example that is of the UNreliability of the black edge on the pelvic fins as a female characteristic. Yes black-edged pelvics are certainly more prominent in females on average, but some males can show it too, at least in the regani lineage. Odd thing is, I expect to see female-like characteristics (include black pelvic edge) on non-dominant males trying to avoid aggression, but that's not the case with this guy. Also it's interesting that this pair seems to tolerate their "teenage kids" being around. Many pairs start attacking their older offspring (as competitors) when they get beyond 1/2 inch or so.

 

[Mike Wise]

OK, better, but not enough to be absolutely sure. They look like they are a regani-group species, probably in the regani-complex. I'd need to see photos of the fish in a stressed/frightened condition to be more certain. The ventral stripe is unusual in this species-group, so it is helpful. Based on what little I can see of the dark markings on the flanks, the fully cross-striped caudal and general shape of the fins, my guess right now is that you have a fish that I call A. cf. sp. Gelbwangen (Rio Negro). It rarely comes in except as contaminants with other fish. I don't even know if the species is even shown in any books. The only place I've seen photos of it on the web are on the Japanese web site Rayon Vert Aqua. I tried quickly looking for the photos, but didn't find them there.

 

[Charliem9]

Sorry I cant help with ID, beyond "regani group" (male's barred tail may narrow the choices) - but I just wanted to point out what a nice example that is of the UNreliability of the black edge on the pelvic fins as a female characteristic. Yes black-edged pelvics are certainly more prominent in females on average, but some males can show it too, at least in the regani lineage. Odd thing is, I expect to see female-like characteristics (include black pelvic edge) on non-dominant males trying to avoid aggression, but that's not the case with this guy. Also it's interesting that this pair seems to tolerate their "teenage kids" being around. Many pairs start attacking their older offspring (as competitors) when they get beyond 1/2 inch or so.

I found the pelvic fin pigment interesting too. Also the fact that the male did change colors once they started to breed. First pic in the thread was him before they spawned and now you see how much yellow he is.

As for the tolerance of the "teenagers", it has appeared to me that it is because I allowed the pH to come back up toward normal range of 6.5-6.8 after they spawned and the fry started to grow/I changed more water. When leaving the pH as low as it needs to be for them to spawn, both parents will beat the fry away/to death.

They show 0 interest in spawning at anything above 5.0ph. And even then only laid at 4.4

 

[Charliem9]

OK, better, but not enough to be absolutely sure. They look like they are a regani-group species, probably in the regani-complex. I'd need to see photos of the fish in a stressed/frightened condition to be more certain. The ventral stripe is unusual in this species-group, so it is helpful. Based on what little I can see of the dark markings on the flanks, the fully cross-striped caudal and general shape of the fins, my guess right now is that you have a fish that I call A. cf. sp. Gelbwangen (Rio Negro). It rarely comes in except as contaminants with other fish. I don't even know if the species is even shown in any books. The only place I've seen photos of it on the web are on the Japanese web site Rayon Vert Aqua. I tried quickly looking for the photos, but didn't find them there.

Wow, Mike I had zero thought that anything remotely close to this would be the case. I will be moving the young ones to a grow out tank next week, and will try and corral the adults alongside the glass with a net for some photos.

Also, Mike, if there is anything that would be unique to help depict which species other than the barring, I can make every attempt to get a photo of that while I am at it?

 

[Mike Wise]

Flank bars and other dark markings are the best. Well not really. The best would be specimens preserved in ethanol, but I doubt you want to do that! Best way to photograph these markings (other than the 'shake and bake' method) is to put them in a small dark tank and shine a bright light on them. It won't make them happy, that's for certain. Like I said, I'm not 100% certain what species they are, so don't use that name, please.

 

[Charliem9]

Mike, if that would be needed, I can send you my lone F1 pair from their first spawn, if inclinations are still the same after better dark marking photos. That way you can have live specimens to preserve how you would see fit haha! And of course, I will be hoarding them until we get them figured out. I appreciate the help so far, thank you!

 

[Mike Wise]

If you want, I'd be happy to get a pair to look at. If the F1s are still small, I'd wait until after I get back from Peru in October. PM me about a time. Hopefully you're in the US.

 

[Charliem9]

Mike, I am in the US. PA. Sorry for the delay in response been a busy last few weeks. I did get around to getting dark marking pics which I hope are of good enough quality. Figured I was disturbing them enough to move all the teens out and get the pair setup to spawn again. Let me know if these are useful enough or need more again. Thanks! Two pics of the male are first then two of the female.

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm sorry, but the photos are just too fuzzy (out of focus) to see anything useful. My guess is that you're using your cell phone for photos. For these type of pictures the average cell is not good enough.

 

[Charliem9]

I'm sorry, but the photos are just too fuzzy (out of focus) to see anything useful. My guess is that you're using your cell phone for photos. For these type of pictures the average cell is not good enough.

Mike,
I have gotten around to getting much higher quality pictures, and am hoping these can help with a better ID. These are of the males dark markings, as the female is on yet another batch of eggs. If these help if you could pm me your email address so we can start talking about how to get some to you for proper ID and pics and all that jazz I would appreciate it. I really hope these can shed better light on them.

 

[Mike Wise]

What color is the gill cover? Any idea of which country they came from, what they were brought in with?