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A. panduro 184?

rr16

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5 Year Member
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536
Helloe, hello. Whilst on the topic of A. panduro vs A. nijsseni I have just noticed that my A. panduro male (yes, I now have an actual A. panduro male!) appears to have some vertical stripes on his caudal. He's only young yet and I only noticed these on the photographs until I looked today, but I can see two vertical dark bands. So, I guess the question is - is he an A184 as opposed to an A183? Photos aren't great as I only have him with my camera phone yet, but feel free to let me know what you think!
Oh, and while we're on IDing things. Can anyone tell me if this is Copella nattereri?
 

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dw1305

Well-Known Member
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2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
The tank looks great.

I can't help with the Apistogramma, but some very similar Copella (with a broad black band and no red spotting) came into my local MA, and we think they maybe C. nigrofasciata.

cheers Darrel
 

Mike Wise

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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Hard to say what either species really is. The photos aren't clear enough. The apisto could be A. panduro A 183 (like the photo in the DATZ book, p. 83, top left) or A 184. It depends on the amount of black pigment in the caudal fin. Just to throw you a curve (an old American baseball expression) it might also be A. sp. Matses. As for the other fish, without seeing any red spots above the lateral band, I wouldn't want to call this Lebiasinid C. nattereri.
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
The Lebiasinid has one or two red spots in the dorsal fin I think. Not looked too closely until tonight, but the light is off now so not sure what it looks like. Will have to pay attention another time. They've grown really fast in the last few weeks though. I have a small apisto I thought at first may be a small A. barlowi (as it was a random one left in a shop that had, had them in) but it may be something different now. My large male A. barlowi doesn't seem to bother it at all, even when a few cm's away. I'll have to get some pics up soon. It has blue on its anal fin and looked today like there may be some of the spotted pattern (I forget what it's called) on the anal, that you get in the caudal of A. barlowi. Guess I'll get some pics and see!
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
The apisto could be A. panduro A 183 (like the photo in the DATZ book, p. 83, top left) or A 184. It depends on the amount of black pigment in the caudal fin. Just to throw you a curve (an old American baseball expression) it might also be A. sp. Matses.
No, don't do this to me! Ha ha. After the panduro/nijsseni mix up and hybridisation I thought I had a definite A. panduro male! I'm pretty sure the female is A. panduro. She has a narrower cheek line (forgot the name!) and markings on one side that run along the belly and up her side - will have to look properly, but not seen her much as she's got a bunch of wrigglers she's hiding at the mo! As for the male - there appear to be 2 or three vertical bands in the caudal. However, he's pretty young still and smaller than the female. He has a pretty predominant black patch on his side (again, I forgot the name - I'm going to re-read your paper on identification and markings and try to commit it to memory at some point - usually takes two or three goes!). Lateral spot? Anyway, it's late and I digress! How will I tell if he's A. sp. "matses"? Will an adult male A. panduro have fin extensions where A. sp. "matses" doesn't? My male also has a distinct lack of caudal spot (or it's very faint if he does have one!). The A. sp "Matses" on Tom's page look closer to A. nijsseni than A. panduro to me, but then I'm only a beginner and not looked in great detail. Sorry, am going off track here!
 

Mike Wise

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11,202
Location
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How will I tell if he's A. sp. "matses"?

The differences between A. nijsseni, A. panduro, and A. sp. Matses (and its "A. sp. Nijsseni-New" unpatterned caudal form) can be subtle:

A. nijsseni: even (non-serrated) dorsal spines (male); smaller round caudal spot, very large centrally located oval lateral spot, and mostly black operculum (female)

A. panduro: slightly serrated dorsal spines (first 6 spines) (male); larger wedge-shaped caudal spot that extends well into caudal fin, large flank spot/band appearing mostly below mid-flank, typical apisto-like cheek stripe (female)

A. sp. Matses: slightly serrated dorsal spines (first 6 spines) (male); large round caudal spot, large centrally located lateral spot (not as large as on A. nijsseni), and cheek stripe that can cover half of the gill cover (much more than panduro, much less than nijsseni) (female).
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
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536
Thanks Mike. I guess time will tell as he matures and develops further.
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
Looking at my male "A. panduro" today I still cannot see much in the way of a caudal spot at present and the overall body colour is more yellowish like that of a female, than the more obviously blue sheen of a male (however, it is in blackwater so this could affect this!). He has a very prominent lateral spot/patch too. Time will tell I guess!
As for the Lebiasinid here are a few more pictures that may or may not be of use in identification. They appear to have a red-orange patch (again, blackwater makes this difficult to tell!) both above and behind and infront and below of the dark spot on the dorsal fin. There may be some reddish colouration in the ventral fins but hard to tell (on a different note - just noticed the lovely red patches on the anal fin of some of my Nannostomus eques today when they looked like they were building up to spawning behaviour), so am not sure about this. There doesn't appear to be any red spots either above or below the dark lateral band.
Any help with IDing it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Russ
 

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rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
OK, here are a few more photos of the male A. panduro (?) and one of the random suspected Copella. The latter appears to have red in the anal and ventral fins also but I have had a torch on them today and cannot see any red markings on the body at all. The former's caudal appears to have markings more like bands, than like the patterning I can see on the A. sp "Matses" photos on Mr Tom's site! Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. There's also a random not greaat one of him displaying against one of the hybrid young!
 

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rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
It's supposed to be wild caught from Tahuayo, but can't check for sure as the shop has closed down now, but it was an importer of fish from S. America. My female which is (as far as can be guaranteed without catching it yourself) wild caught from Tahuayo used to have a decent caudal spot but this has disappeared pretty much in recent times. Guess I will wait and see if the caudal spot appears or not.
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
. As for the other fish, without seeing any red spots above the lateral band, I wouldn't want to call this Lebiasinid C. nattereri.

I've been looking through images on fishbase and it looks similar to either C. compta or C. metae on there (although over on seriously fish C. metae has been renamed C. eigenmanni). Anyway, I appear to definitely have at least one male as it's starting to get longer fins and there's also a dark adge to the anal fin now. Guess I'll just wait and see (there's already been some jostling around going on right before lights out tonight near the floating plants). Wish I'd bought more now (especially at 25p each) but the poor lady in the shop was really struggling to catch them when they were about 1cm long and just a handful in a shoal of several hundred neons of the same size.
 

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