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A. panduro second spawning?

rr16

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536
My female A. panduro has fry at approx 3.5 weeks of age. The last couple of days she has been returning to the leaf "cave" in which she first layed. The young from the first brood have spread out randommly and only seen 2-3 today (there were around 9 a few days ago!), but then there is a lot of leaf litter and they are perfactly camoflaged. Whenever the male goes near the female she does the belly show to the male rather frantically and often returns to the "cave". She doesn't seem to bother the 3 and a half week old fry, but she's no longer hearding them along. They seem to just be residing within the half of the tank that is the Apisto territory.

So, as this is the longest I've ever reared apisto fry for, can anyone advise as to whether the female has probably spawned again and if so how she's likely to react to the fry?
 

Mike Wise

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She probably is ready to spawn again, if she already has not. She could consider her older fry to be predators on her new fry and will drive them away. If they continually return to her brooding territory there is a good chance they will be killed.
 

rr16

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OK, thanks Mike. I'll keepan eye out! I saw at least 7 of them in the same place in the root tangles they're often in and the female didn't seem to be doing the displaying to the male, but then both of these accounts are based on less than 10 mins observations each really as just not had much time this week. Think I'll keep an eye on it and see how they go on. All the oak leaves are starting to fall so I think I'll get out and grab a load and up the leaf litter to add more cover.
 

rr16

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I think my suspicions were either wrong, or she did spawn but has eaten it. She seemed to be around with them yesterday and looking after the territory they were in. Today however, the male is patrolling with fins held high and the female is being repeatedly chased to the other end of the tank with the neons, sailfin tetras and dwarf cories! I've seen at least 3 young happily sifting through the sand within close sight of the male so am guessing he has decided to take over the brood care. Anyone seem this before or have any ideas? Bare in mind the male is probably A. nijsseni and not A. panduro as the female is.
 

rr16

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He's definitely taken over brood care. I'd read about it happening but obviously never seen it as I've never got past the 1 week stage. Does it seem to be random Mike or are there particular species that in which the males tend to take over brood care? These are now 4 weeks old, which is the point at which the male took oveer brood care.
 

Mike Wise

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I think that species that tend to form temporary pairs exhibit the trait more than polygamous forms. Also seems that it occurs more often when in a tank with other potential fry predators.
 

rr16

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536
Thanks - they're not following the norm anyway if the male really is A. nijsseni as they're hybrids now. Will have to think about what to do with them. Obviously I'd want to split the male and female up eventually (which seems a shame, what with A. panduro being reputedly hard to pair sometimes), but I don't really want to end up with a continuous stream of hybrid offspring. Not sure what I'll do with these if they live to adulthood. Will definitely make sure they are labelled up as hybrids whatever happens as the male is not showing any dorsal extensions and looks far more A. nijsseni-like than anything else.
 

rr16

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Still got at least 6 fry. They're getting to a decent size now and can clearly see the black cheek stripes (sorry Mike, need to read your article again to remember all the proper names of the dark markings!). The male is still brooding and banished the female.
 

rr16

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For anyone who is interested, these are the fry. There's a pic of the male too who seems to be A. nijsseni to me. Any confirmation on that would be great though.
 

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rr16

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536
I've seen one or two in the last couple of days, but have added lots of leaf litter and removed the male and added an actual young A. panduro male so we shall see what happens.
 

rr16

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536
Well, have just seen one of the hybrids and got some not great photos. It's around 1cm in length now. The female is more than likely spawning in her leaf cave with the male panduro I got recently so hopefully get some panduro F1 youngsters. She's chasing the hybrid young whenever she sees them now!
 

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rr16

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5 Year Member
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536
I've seen definitely two of these today and I think a third also! Here's a vid featuring one of them! They're feisty little buggers and display to the male A. panduro which is about 4-5 times their length! Luckily there's lots of leaf litter for them to retreat to when the male or female A. panduro come near.
 

rr16

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536
Here are a few pics of the hybrid fry if anyone is interested!
 

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rr16

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5 Year Member
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536
Ha ha, fair enough. Personally I was quite piddled off when I realised the male I'd been sold as panduro was a nijsseni, but I'm curious how they'll turn out and don't really tend to kill them off. Who's Mugsy? The cat?
 

rr16

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536
I have no intention of letting them leave! It was unfortunate that the hybridisation occurred, but I'm curious to see what the adults look like now. I imagine that the hybridisation of these two closely related species is probably something akin to what has happened with many of the A. agassizi that are around today as I imagine that many different ones from different areas have been crossed. I have no idea whether panduro and nijsseni are more or less genetically distinct from each other than different populations that have made up agassizi (or other popular, widespread "species") strains or not. Plus, it's not just the genetics that affect phenotype, but appears to be due also to epigenetics (which I interpret as Lamarkism meets Darwinism, although to be fair, I know little of epigenetics, other than a vague idea of methylation of DNA and increases or decreases in protein expression). Not that I'm suggesting that genetically similar populations should be mixed either way, probably more likely waffling on with myself. Like I say, they'll be staying with me as I don't want to be accidentally introducing hybrids into the general population of UK aquaria - they're more of a curiosity than anything!
 

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