Apistogramma agassizii agression

[Josie*]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum

I recently decided to change one of my tanks (20 gallon long) up and go for a planted biotape, I decided on apistos and dwarf pencil fish to stock the tank. The tannins aren't quite where I want them yet, as I've found when using only IALs sometimes you will get beautiful black water quickly, sometimes you get none :/ so will be slowly adding more leaves and monitoring PH. (My tap PH is already 6.2-6.4)

I got them two days ago, one male and one female. I made sure to provide plenty of hiding spaces, and made two caves. Today, the male is attacking the female. I knew there was a chance of aggression, was just hoping I would get lucky with only buying two. I'm worried about adding another female, as I don't think my tank is big enough if they decide to spawn (if I'm lucky enough!) at the same time.

I've already changed the tank decor around a little in a attempt to stop him, doesn't seem to have worked. Is this something that will eventually settle down, and do you suggest adding another female?

Thanks so much for any replies.

 

[regani]

The tank is still fairly open and the hiding places are all clustered together so the male will be claim that area as his and drive the female out as long as she doesn't show signs she wants to breed. Should she lay eggs you will have the opposite problem with the female vigorously defending her cave and the male with no safe areas to retreat to.
The aggression may settle down after some time but to help things along I would create two different areas with hiding spots at opposing ends of the tank and have some visual barriers in the middle (large plant, driftwood etc.).

To darken the water you can make a 'tea' from the almond leaves by boiling some of them in a little water and letting them steep for a while. This way you can add some of that 'tea' to the tank until you got the desired level of tinting.

 

[Josie*]

Thanks, I've been looking at the coconut caves online, think I will get one, I've also ordered new plants to fill in the gaps a bit. this is a dirted tank so I'm not looking forward to digging some of the plants up to rearrange

I'm actually getting a bit worried about the female, when I first got them home they were in really bad shape, like nearly dead. I assume from high ammonia levels in the bag. Once I got them acclimated and in the tank they were fine, the male is great now, the female I've seen flashing occasionally and is not anywhere near as active as the male. He did allow her into his favourite cave just before though, and did a nice display for her. I'm just worrying there's something wrong with her and don't know wether to assume its irritation of the gills from the incident when I first got them home, ich, gill flukes....been doing small daily water changes.

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates <5
Tank has been set up for over year with tiger barbs I rehomed before getting the apistos, so well established.

Thanks for your reply, will definitely make some more hiding places, and got lots of nice plants on the way so its not so bare

 

[rr16]

Whereabouts in the world are you Josie? I'm in the UK and use oak and beech leaves, as well as some IAL as leaf litter. If you use a thick layer with depths of about 2-3 inches in places you will hopefully have enough places for the female to hide until ashe comes into breeding condition. This worked well in my blackwater tank (at least until I added A. barlowi into there anyway!)

 

[Josie*]

I'm from the north east, Newcastle. I've got a few indian almond leaves in there, I ripped them up as I find they leech tannins quicker that way. I also have a whole one in there she likes to hide under. I just can't vacuum the substrate properly in those areas, I know when my plants start to mature a bit as this is a dirted tank that won't matter so much, but I still worry about toxic waste build up ( I'm a natural worrier) in the areas I can't reach where the leaves are. I'm going to order a cave, or make one (I have 10 tonnes of the stuff I made the other two caves from so will probably end up using more of that!) move things around a bit and add some more leaves too.

Thanks so much, any advise is truly appreciated

 

[Duffmanj]

Try making your own coconut caves, really easy with a small saw or serrated knife and they leech tannins heavily. There are guides online. Do you have a world of water near you? Their wood is usually fairly well priced. Either or both of the above will help provide more hiding spots/break up line of sight plus give you the blackwater you're after. Just make sure you boil the empty coconut shells, otherwise you might find its too dark!

 

[Duffmanj]

Not to mention the cost is way lower ☺

 

[Josie*]

I just bought a cave for pennies on ebay, I have thought about making the coconut ones before, but I've already bought this so I suppose it will have to do now

I've never heard of a world of water?

I'm going to separate her for a little while, wait until I have cave and more plants, rearrange everything and let her get her strength back then add her back in. Maybe with another female, will have to do some serious situation assessing!

 

[Duffmanj]

Maybe they're only down here ☺ if you fancy a trip theres the BCA convention on Sunday in wigan, seems a bit more apistogramma focused, couple of talks from leaders in the field and then an auction. Well worth the trip! http://www.britishcichlid.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11782

 

[Josie*]

Thanks for the link, will have a look

 

[regani]

I wouldn't worry about the buildup of mulm under leaves and other structures. That buildup of decaying organic matter is a bit of an urban myth IMO. Sure, if you overfeed, have a number of plants die off, or a couple fish die at once you will have to remove that. But the 'normal' stuff that accumulates over time is that part of organic matter that does not degrade or degrades very slowly, so there is no real risk of it affecting water quality much. I actually leave the mulm in on purpose as it has an enormous surface area where beneficial bacteria and other micro organisms will grow. I often see fry grazing in there and it is a nice supplement to their their regular diet, I think.
So unless it is for aesthetics there is no reason to worry about mulm in the tank - at least that is my experience.

 

[Josie*]

Thanks, I will remember that- I always wondered how people vacuumed when they have deep leaf litter! Will start moving a few things around today, add some more Leaves, then wait for the plants and cave to come, hopefully it all works out!

Thanks so much

 

[peterclarke666]

much agreed far to open tank i use leaf litter heavily in my tanks and always a place for either male or female to hide until the pair become bonded enough that they are very happy but what u could try for the moment is the mirror trick so the male has an imaginary male to fight against as thats what ive had to do with my vielfleck at the moment as the pair do nothing but try to kill each other

a few examples

 

[rr16]

This worked well for my male and two female aggies! There's actually more leaf litter now too!

 

[Duffmanj]

I'll be keeping an eye out for leaves at the BCA sunday. How many forests did you have to raid to fill all your tanks Peter?

 

[Duffmanj]

Oh and I meant to ask (could wait til Sunday but) what lighting do you use?

 

[Josie*]

They are amazing tanks, unfortunately, I just don't have those skills I have separated the female into another tank, where she is much happier for now until I get the tank how it should be.

This is a dirted tank, so I can't just take all the plants out and add leaf little and driftwood (although that's sort of what I wish I had done!) newly planted tanks do look bare for the first few weeks, but the plants will soon start going mad, and it will be like a jungle-the tank being this bare is not how I want it, or how I expect it to be in a few weeks

I have moved the hiding places around, I going to trim the sword right back And plant the back with hydrocotyle leucocephala which should provide good cover, I've ordered lots of water lettuce too. I am planning two more caves, and I'm going to move some java moss in from another tank and add more leaves. I'm going to move the middle cave and fill the middle section with leaves. I will post pictures when I've finished, hopefully you will think I've added enough hiding spaces and its not so bare here it is now, after moving things around in preparation for the new plants and caves. I've bought a lots of hydrocotyle so I'm hoping that will really take over, and it will soon have the jungle I want (remember, I only dirted and planted this tank 2 weeks ago, that's why its bare right now) also, I'm moving that ugly blue filter soon, I'm just using it as I bought another filter and I need it to seed the new one.

 

[Josie*]

I just want to say THANK YOU to peter for your inspiring pictures, and everyone for your very valuable advise. It has made me realise I have been carefully placing my decor and expecting to get a natural look. I've changed my view point and I think the tank looks much better now.
I'm going to get rid of the sword and heavily plant with the hydrocotyle leucocephala when it arrives, I've ordered more twiggy drift wood, need to get more leaves.

Here it is now, it can't get a good pic as the light is shining too much! And a bit cloudy after messing around in by here and water changes. Stewed a little bit of IAL and added it, still not as black as I would like but its getting there I think

Thank you so much again. Will post again when I have the wood and plants and more leaves

 

[peterclarke666]

I'll be keeping an eye out for leaves at the BCA sunday. How many forests did you have to raid to fill all your tanks Peter?

hahahaha just a few but mark breeze should have his stand there selling leafs ... just depends if i get there first

Oh and I meant to ask (could wait til Sunday but) what lighting do you use?

im using t8 LED tubes 1200mm 16w per tube the light u see from pics is from my dslr cameras external flash and wireless flash trigger as i place the flash on the glass sliding lids that way i get no glare atal when taking photos

I just want to say THANK YOU to peter for your inspiring pictures, and everyone for your very valuable advise. It has made me realise I have been carefully placing my decor and expecting to get a natural look. I've changed my view point and I think the tank looks much better now.
I'm going to get rid of the sword and heavily plant with the hydrocotyle leucocephala when it arrives, I've ordered more twiggy drift wood, need to get more leaves.

Here it is now, it can't get a good pic as the light is shining too much! And a bit cloudy after messing around in by here and water changes. Stewed a little bit of IAL and added it, still not as black as I would like but its getting there I think

Thank you so much again. Will post again when I have the wood and plants and more leavesView attachment 3416

looks better but u dont really need any skills to do it my last pic with the most leaf litter in ... i just placed some redmoor root in the tank with few oak and beach twigs and then broke up some leafs and just chucked em in so just took me to place 4 bits of wood

to get a better idea did u read my 5page feature on my fish room and apistos from febuarys issue of practical fish keeping magazine ?

 

[Josie*]

How do I find it? I will be interested in reading that.
Yes but you are obviously a natural. I think it does take skill and a good eye to recreate nature so perfectly