Blue ram fry questions…

[ExReefer]

I’m on my 6th or 7th spawn now with my German Blue Rams. Up until I now, I’ve allowed nature to take over and left the parents with the spawn. Only one time did I see the spawn get to the wriggler stage before they were eaten by the parents. For this latest spawn, I removed the female within an hour or two of spawning and removed the male 24 hours later. This was an excellent spawn as all by seven or eight eggs hatched and are currently in the wriggler stage. I expect them to be free swimming by tomorrow or early Sunday morning.

Anyway, I’m debating if I should just leave the fry in the current tank or move them to an empty 10 gallon. Their current tank is a 29 gallon planted aquarium and they are the only fish in the tank. This was the breeder tank. I moved the parents to a 75 gallon planted aquarium. The 29 gallon is safe from predators and has lots of live plants with established algae and a mature sponge filter. I figured the fry could live off the infurosia from the plants and sponge filter until I get them on BBS.

Here are my questions:

1) Am I wrong to think they could feed off infurosia for the first few days until they get large enough to take BBS?
2) Should I move them to a bare bottom 10 gal. so I can easily siphon uneaten food off the bottom? (I can use the tank water their original tank and move the mature sponge filter).
3) Do they stand the best chance of survival leaving them in the established breeder tank?

 

[electric eel]

there should be enough stuff in there to get them by to day three or so(the point when they are big enough to take freshly hatched bbs)they will also eat powdered spirulina hydrated in water and squirted(stick your arm in the tank and squirt it right to them-gently) in with an eyedropper from day one.if you go that route use the spirulina sparingly as any that is uneaten goes rancid quickly.i've used gnarly hunks of java moss in the past and there is definitely enough stuff there for them to survive on till they can take bbs.as you said its easier to clean the bottom of the tank if it is barebottom and you can feed more and they will grow faster but it is also much more work and if you don't pay attention to keeping the tank clean you could lose them all.i didn't get any fry till my 7th spawn the first time.its a pretty good feeling huh?congratulations on sticking with it this long.way to go!an awful lot of people are trying with no sucess.

 

[dw1305]

Biofilm

Hi all,
Congratulations Exreefer, they are not easy, I'm with electric eel on this I like the "gnarly hunks of Java moss" route for all little fry, in fact I like lots of little water changes, with plenty of mulm and biofilm all round, it might not look very aesthetic, but it is almost certainly helping the fry.

Have a look on the Killi forums, there is plenty of references to small natural food on these because they are often struggling with small fry that only go for live food.

I remember there was a good web page on raising Epiplatys annulatus without additional feeding, but I'm not sure where it is, I expect someone might know?

cheers Darrel

 

[ExReefer]

That’s what I was thinking. I purposely haven’t vacuumed the substrate or scraped the film/algae of the glass for long time on purpose. I don’t have any java moss, but I have two enormous Amazon swords, and a few good sized crypts. The leaves of the sword plants have all kinds of “interesting†stuff growing on them since I don’t use any algae eaters in the breeder tank. I figured the fry have a good chance of survival the in this set up and the tank has a strong biological bacteria colony to give me some wiggle room. The breeder tank is 50% tap and 50% RO water, but I’m using 100% RO water on the water changes. I don’t want to take any chance on something in the tap water killing off the delicate fry.

This is exciting. I really hope the fry can make it to the BBS stage. If so, I think I’ll be in good shape.

 

[electric eel]

the fry actually aren't that sensitive.i've grown out every ram i've produced in my 8.2ph and almost 700ppm(somewhere in the high 600's) i think they are more colorful when grown out in hard water.i usually acclimate them when they are a couple days old.it also makes them easier to deal with since you aren't using ro or rainwater and that way if you sell some to a local fish store they won't have any problems and you will get a good reputation.if its anything like around here you will have no problems selling them.i've also traded for some really cool fish as well.

 

[ExReefer]

The fry are starting to free swim tonight. I've noticed tons of copepods crawling on the glass and substrate. I don't see how the fry won't have enough natural food to get them off to a get start. The only problem is that the fry are so small that it's nearly impossible to see if they are actually trying to eat the copepods.

 

[dw1305]

Hi Ex-Reefer,
Sounds promising, the Ram fry will too small for the copepods you can see, and the copepods too fast to catch, but there will be other things that they can eat. Try squeezing a filter sponge out and pipetting the "cloudy water" to the fry, filter sponges are full of rotifers.

Java moss "tangles" are really good for fry because the large surface area (think of it like a really coarse filter sponge) for biofilm to attach to, the initial bacteria and diatoms attracts rotifers, protozoans etc, and over time you build up a diverse community of fry food. The structure of the tangle also means little fry can get inside at the hidden food, and away from predators etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[electric eel]

as darrel said i've used a sponge filter in an emergency sucessfully.i still think you will be alright if the tank is as established as you say.the fry are almost big enough to take bbs but not quite.i bought some "micro"bbs eggs from jehmco that according to john were 425 microns(compared to around 575 for sanfrancisco bay and i'm thinking around 625 for utah) at hatching.they could take those from day one but the eggs were quite expensive and haven't been available for a while.i raised 45 kili fry to bbs size(my only experience with kili's) out of 53 hatched eggs with nothing but java moss and then vinegar eels at a cetain point so i'm pretty sure your rams will find enough to eat.if they were in a smaller tank you would be able to see them "hunting" i have about 30(the male ate the other 60 or so) longfinned fry in a 1and a half gallon tank.they are a hair smaller(from inbreeding in my opinion) then the standard fins and i started them off on vinegar eels from day one and by day 3 or so they were big enough to take utah bbs(initially maybe only one or two at a time and they were full)

 

[ExReefer]

I wish I could tell if the fry were eating. They are picking at the live plants and the sponge filter. I assume if they are still alive after 48 hours of free swimming, they must be eating something. I tried BBS today, but they didn't go after it. Probably still too small to eat BBS. They pick at and chase the copepods on the glass. Maybe they are able to eat some of the smaller copepods. They are just so small, I cannot figure out if their stomachs are full or not.

 

[electric eel]

thats whats nice about keeping them in a gallon jug or a small 1 and a half gallon tank for a week or so.they are contained and the food can't get away from them and you can actually see whats going on.if you change a little bit of water everday(or every otherday if you watch closely and only feed as much as they eat) they do just fine.i've got too many fish going right now to mess with all that so i've started putting them in 10 or 20 gallon tanks(thanks for reminding me bev hadn't done many angels in at least a year forgot that trick) with a couple inches of water and gradually adding water as they grow.you need some vinegar eels or microworms.i would be happy to send you some vinegar eels as long as they don't freeze i'm sure they would make it to you alive.

 

[ExReefer]

I still have about 50-60 fry. It’s hard to tell for sure because they are all spread out in a 29 gal. Not sure why these 50 or so are doing well and the others didn’t make it. They appear to have grown, but still not eating BBS. They inhale the BBS, and spit it out. They pick at the algae on the glass and plants most of the day. If they make it to the weekend, they should be able to take BBS and I think things will get a lot easier. I’ve been doing 15% water changes every other day with RO water. I will slowly move over to tap water once I’m convinced they are eating very well.

On a side note, my apisto agassizi have spawned in my 75 gal. planted community tank. I only use tap water in there. Their eggs are a lot larger than the german blue ram eggs.

Thanks for the offer on the vinegar eels, but by the time they arrive, the fry should be large enough to eat BBS. Everything I read says they should take BBS by day 3 or
4. Tonight is day 4.5.

 

[electric eel]

i was thinking for next time.your pair should spawn much like angelfish(every 2 to 3 weeks)if you take the fry.the few times i've been sucessful at getting them to brood the fry they go longer between spawns.congrats on the agazizi.i personally think thay are one of the prettiest of the apisto's.my double red male is an awesome looking fish and the pair are very good parents.

 

[ExReefer]

Hi Ex-Reefer,
Sounds promising, the Ram fry will too small for the copepods you can see, and the copepods too fast to catch, but there will be other things that they can eat. Try squeezing a filter sponge out and pipetting the "cloudy water" to the fry, filter sponges are full of rotifers.

Java moss "tangles" are really good for fry because the large surface area (think of it like a really coarse filter sponge) for biofilm to attach to, the initial bacteria and diatoms attracts rotifers, protozoans etc, and over time you build up a diverse community of fry food. The structure of the tangle also means little fry can get inside at the hidden food, and away from predators etc.

cheers Darrel

Well they must eating those copepods or “bugs†I see all over the glass and substrate because they won’t eat any prepared food. There are 18 fry left and they are growing well. It appears that their stomach is always full. They must be so much natural food available that they don’t want any prepared food I throw in there. They pick at the glass all day long.

 

[electric eel]

the fry thrive on algea too.i was working a lot of overtime last year and had a spawn in a 20long that had so much algae on the front that you could'nt see them.i kept feeding them and eventually scraped off the algae figuring half of them would be dead.suprisingly they were signifigantly bigger then a spawn i had in a 55gallon tank that were 3 or 4 weeks older then they were.after i cleaned the front of the 20long i watched them over the course of a few days and they fed pretty much continuously on the algae on the sides and back of the tank.

 

[georgedv]

I had a similar experience w/corys. I put half in a grow out tank and the other half in an empty tank that had green water and the sides were covered w/algae. I fed those in the grow out tank live brine shrimp, flakes and shrimp pelets...nothing for those in the green tank. About a month later I saw a cory in the green tank. It was three times the size of those in the grow out tank. I emptied the tank but kept the water to pour back. All the corys were there. Where as in the grow out tank I had lost five.

g

 

[dw1305]

Biofilm

Hi all,
Yes the term "algae" covers a multitude of possibilities, that is why I prefer the term "biofilm" for the fuzzy green covering. I'm convinced a healthy biofilm is one of the main requirements for stable aquaria. It's difficult at first, as it goes against all the traditional "aquarium keeping" dogma, but I think you've got to learn to love your biofilm.

Even though both cories and rams are largely carnivorous omnivores and might not seem to be getting much food value from the algae, they will be picking up all sorts of good things from the biofilm.

For work I still maintain some cultures (Amoeba, Chlorella and Euglena, which are a real chore) but if I want some general micro-organisms for a class I just scrape some biofilm, add some filter sponge squeezings and let the students get on with.

Brilliant, stuffed full of rotifers, ciliates etc and plenty of variety too - little tiny crustaceans, diatoms, nematodes etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[ExReefer]

That makes a lot of sense. The fry pick at the glass continuously throughout the day and night. The fry that are still around always look fat and happy, but I’m not sure why a lost so many in very first few days of the free swimming stage. Maybe the ones that are doing well are the only ones that figured out how to find this natural food source? This is about as natural as it can get inside of aquarium. Very cool and easy so far. I just keep doing water changes every few days and keep the light on for 8 hours a day. What little food I have added to the water column probably just feeds the “biofilmâ€.

Thanks for all the dialogue. This thread has been helpful.