A. agassizii "fire tail".

[briztoon]

I mentioned some time ago about a LFS here selling some agassizii labled as "fire tail". I have had a pair in a tank for a couple of weeks now. In the tank next to them, are a pair of agassizii bought as "flamenco". To my untrained eye they are near identical fish.

Unfortunately I have no photo's of my "flamenco" at the moment. But I have two decent photos of the male "fire tail". I would be interested anyones thoughts as to which variant they may be.

 

[animalmgc]

I bought a trio of the exact color from Aqauticclarity so would be interested to hear the results.I've been told that its basically just a red and yesterday during a visit to a LFS I saw a Agassizii "red tail" that was a red with the blue trim on the outside of the tail http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=10291&page=3 this is a link to the page My agassizii looks identical to

 

[Mike Wise]

Briztoon, the fish in the photos is not the same as A. agassizii Flamenco, which is found in the Río Tigre of Peru. Flamenco has much more red/orange in the fins. Your fish are from the other side of the Amazon/Ucayali in the area between the Río Tamshiyacu and Río Tahuayo in Peru. Your Flamencos are a color morph of the type form of A. agassizii and one of the western most populations known. The fish in the photos is A. cf. agassizii (Pastel) and could be a separate species within the A. agassizii super-species. It will cross with the typical A. agassizii, but I recommend that you don't cross it. This form is very rare in the hobby. Exporters don't recognize its rarity. You are lucky to own it!

I can't say whether or not animalmgc's fish is the same form without seeing photos of it. The link provided shows no photos.

 

[aquaticclarity]

Mike,

Here are some random males from the batch of fish that animalmgc got his fish from:

Also check out page 8 of the same thread for a bunch of agassizii pics. (Page 8 has the diverse cacatouides pictured)

 

[animalmgc]

thanx Jeff I didn't want Mike to suffer from my lack of a camera

 

[animalmgc]

first 2 were taken @ local fish store they were label redtail not sure if you can see the blue outline sry taken with my cell phone last one is the fish that I believe is the same

 

[Mike Wise]

Jeff, your photo shows a more typical Peruvian form of the type A. agassizii: red dorsal, blue/white caudal. Here are the differences between the type form of A. agassizii and A. cf. agassizii (Pastel): above the lateral band Pastel has less distinct dark margins around the scales; the lateral band has less distinct margins and is wider, especially at both ends; the lateral spot is larger; a pale/white row of scales shows just above the lateral band; usually has an olive-yellow breast area between the pectorals and vent; a violet area occurs between the olive-yellow area and the lateral band; the caudal fin that shows a narrower and often broken white submarginal band and a very prominent extension of the lateral band into the the middle. Britzoon's fish is the yellow color morph, where the olive area is more yellow, as is the interior of the caudal fin. There are also a "bright yellow (body) & orange (caudal) form and a blue-violet (body & caudal) form.

 

[aquaticclarity]

Mike,

Did you look at my other pictures of the agassizii in the other thread? I'm not nor never claimed these to be anything but "run of the mill" agassizii. A few males were red and blue finned, a few red finned, and just a couple had the bright breast area (gold/brown). I also noticed some large variation to the tail pattern in terms of the white "arrow" or "diamond" being prominant and crisp or more muted and blurred.

Jeff

 

[animalmgc]

Hopefully I wasn't taken wrong I wasn't trying to say or label my Agassizii any name I was just curious there is a strong similarity between the 2

 

[Mike Wise]

Jeff, I think what you're seeing is the variations in this very polychromatic species. I've seen 3 different color variants come from the same collecting site. When fish are shipped in commercially, we really don't know how many different collecting sites are represented in a shipment. This is why color - especially for A. agassizii forms - is not the primary diagnostic feature. I'm assuming that you are referring to post #82 in the thread at http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=10291. It appears on page 9 on my computer. I must have more posts/page than you. You correctly identified the Red-tail aggies. They, however, are different from Red Agassizii, which has a very different color pattern on the tail. Some fish in the photos show a color pattern sort of like the Pastel form, but all have the uniformly even (wide but less broad) lateral band, seen on the type form of A. agassizii, and different from that on Pastel.

Animalmgc, you certainly weren't wrong to ask a very good question! Not everyone can instantly see differences. It's taken me 30+ years with apistos and several years doing taxonomic work (on fossils, but used the same methods) to see the differences right away. The Lord knows I only wish they had been Pastels. Now, are there any restrictions on exporting non-native fish OUT of Australia??:wink:

 

[briztoon]

Thank you Mike for the identification.

Of the two female "Pastel" I bought, I am sure one is a sub-dominant male. I will seperate him from the pair on Monday. Unfortunately the LFS does not appear to have any more females, but has another half dozen males in stock.

It is a problem the LFS has when ordering apistos. The LFS tries to order x number of pairs, but either recieves male heavy or female heavy batches. And as the fish are wild caught and are brought in to Australia through Asia, it is difficult to know when more may become available and if the LFS will order them in.

Unfortunately my "Flamenco" pair is not a pair, as the the female turned out to be a sub-domint male, and the LFS lost the rest of the stock the weekend after I bought my pair. However I am unsure if the dominant male "Flamenco" is actually a "Flamenco" as he is near identical to the dominant male "Pastel". However the sub-dominant "Flamenco" is starting to show quite a bit of red colouring through it's caudal fin, so I am hoping he is the real deal. Again I will seperate these two males on Monday.

Peter

 

[animalmgc]

and yet what seems like another form of this agassizii found on aqua bid
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwapisto&1278291345

 

[Mike Wise]

Well, they're definitely not Pastel. They look like a mix of several forms. They probably are a domestic red-tail form that has lost its color due to lack of color food.